Pictured above are cod livers in a bowl.
Vitamin D Experts Defend Cod Liver Oil
In November of 2008, Dr. John Cannell of the Vitamin D Council published a commentary in the journal Annals of Otology, Rhinology & Laryngology attacking cod liver oil because of its high vitamin A content, claiming that vitamin A intakes above the most minimal levels would increase mortality rates, increase vulnerability to infections, cause osteoporosis, and antagonize the beneficial effects of vitamin D. Sixteen scientists signed on to the paper as co-authors. In response, Wise Traditions published my article, “The Cod Liver Oil Debate,” in the Spring, 2009 issue, which defended cod liver oil as an important and balanced source of the fat-soluble vitamins and essential fatty acids. The following November, I expanded on this article in my lecture, “Cod Liver Oil: Our Number One Superfood,” at the Foundation’s annual conference.
We’re not the only ones who responded!
In January 2010, Michael F. Holick, MD PhD, a vitamin D researcher whose work I have cited in previous articles, Linda Linday, a medical doctor whose cod liver oil study formed the starting point for Cannell’s 2008 commentary, and several other colleagues, even including one researcher from the National Institutes of Health, made a direct response to Dr. Cannell and his colleagues in the pages of the same journal. What’s more, they even credited the Weston A. Price Foundation for raising concern about the balance between vitamins A and D!
“Cod liver oil,” they wrote, “available without a prescription for hundreds of years, is a valuable source of vitamins A and D, as well as long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, all of which may be important in the prevention of respiratory tract illnesses in children. In many populations around the world, cod liver oil continues to be a valuable source of these important nutrients. The across-the-board dismissal of cod liver oil as a supplement advocated by [Cannell and colleagues] ignores this reality.”
REDUCED RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS
The authors pointed out that in Dr. Linday’s randomized, controlled trials, cod liver oil supplementation cut doctor’s visits for upper respiratory infections between one-third and one-half. Cannell’s paper called this “less than robust,” but most of us would consider such a reduction meaningful, especially if by taking cod liver oil we got sick less often! The authors, moreover, argued that retinol from animal foods is a more reliable source of vitamin A than carotenes from plant foods since there is such wide variation in people’s ability to convert carotenes to vitamin A—an argument that has appeared in the pages of Wise Traditions many times in the past.
THE IDEAL RATIO
But now to the exciting part.
The authors devoted a section of their paper to the ideal ratio of vitamin A to D. “In the responses to [Cannell and colleagues] from the on-line supplement and nutrition newsletter communities,” they wrote, “the issue of the proper ratio of vitamin A to vitamin D emerged as a major concern.” They gave three references, including one to the Weston A. Price Foundation’s “Cod Liver Oil Update” from December, 2008.
In fact, the importance of balance between vitamins A and D was raised in the pages of Wise Traditions even earlier than 2008. In the spring of 2006, I discussed the issue in my article “Vitamin A on Trial: Does Vitamin A Cause Osteoporosis?” when I argued that vitamin A only contributes to osteoporosis when vitamin D levels are deficient or when the ratio of vitamin A to D is massively out of balance. The following fall, I raised the issue again in my article “From Seafood to Sunshine: A New Understanding of Vitamin D Toxicity,” wherein I presented research showing that vitamin A protects against vitamin D toxicity and introduced the possibility that vitamins A, D, and K2 may be cooperative factors that should all be consumed in proper balance. I more fully developed this concept in my spring 2007 article on vitamin K2, “On the Trail of the Elusive X-Factor: A Sixty-Two-Year- Old Mystery Finally Solved.”
As a result of this research, in December of 2007, I published a hypothesis on the molecular mechanism of vitamin D toxicity in the journal Medical Hypotheses entitled “Vitamin D toxicity redefined: vitamin K and the molecular mechanism,” which emphasized interactions between vitamins A, D, and K2. The following year, researchers from Tufts University published a paper in the Journal of Nutrition supporting this hypothesis, showing that vitamin A protects against vitamin D toxicity in part by helping to properly regulate the production of vitamin K-dependent proteins.
One question I have never been able to answer in any of these articles is the one everyone wants an answer to: what, precisely, is the proper ratio of vitamins A and D?
Dr. Linday and her colleagues offer a suggestion: poultry studies suggest optimal A-to-D ratios between four and eight. Similarly, in her own studies showing that cod liver oil protects against upper respiratory tract infections, Linday supplied her patients with A-to-D ratios between five and eight.
They also point out that rat studies showing that vitamin A is toxic and antagonizes the effects of vitamin D used much higher ratios, ranging from 5,000 to 55,000!
It is refreshing to see a powerful defense of cod liver oil in the scientific literature, and especially refreshing to see the work of the Weston A. Price Foundation cited therein.
We owe a big thank you to Dr. Linda Linday (MD) of St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital Center in NY, NY, Dr. John C. Umhau (MD, MPH) of NIH in Bethesda, MD, Richard D. Shindledecker of New York Downtown Hospital in NY, NY, Dr. Jay N. Dolitsky (MD) of New York Eye and Ear Infirmary in NY, NY and Michael F. Holick (PhD, MD) of Boston University Medical Center in Boston, MA for helping to sort out these important questions about the fat-soluble vitamins.
OPTIMAL VITAMIN D LEVELS
Are some people pushing their vitamin D levels too high? Has science proven that the minimal acceptable blood level of vitamin D, in the form of 25(OH)D, is above 50 ng/mL (125 nmol/L)?
The answer is “No.” If you’ve been trying to maintain your levels this high because you thought this was the case, I’m sorry to break the news. There is, on the contrary, good evidence that 25(OH)D levels should be at least 30-35 ng/ mL (75-88 nmol/L). Much higher levels may be better, or they could start causing harm, especially in the absence of adequate vitamins A and K2. Once we leave the land of 30-35 ng/mL, however, we enter the land of speculation.
The idea that science has proven we need to maintain 50 ng/mL as a minimum comes from Dr. John Cannell of the Vitamin D Council. In his article “Am I Vitamin D Deficient?” he writes the following: “Thanks to Bruce Hollis, Robert Heaney, Neil Binkley, and others, we now know the minimal acceptable level. It is 50 ng/ ml (125 nmol/L). In a recent study, Heaney, et al expanded on Bruce Hollis’s seminal work by analyzing five studies in which both the parent compound (cholecalciferol) and 25(OH)D levels were measured. They found that the body does not reliably begin storing cholecalciferol in fat and muscle tissue until 25(OH)D levels get above 50 ng/ml (125 nmol/L). The average person starts to store cholecalciferol at 40 ng/ml (100 nmol/L), but at 50 ng/ml (125 nmol/L) virtually everyone begins to store it for future use. That is, at levels below 50 ng/ml (125 nmol/L), the body uses up vitamin D as fast as you can make it, or take it, indicating chronic substrate starvation—not a good thing. 25(OH)D levels should be between 50–80 ng/ml (125–200 nmol/L), year-round.”
There are a few problems with this argument. To begin with, Drs. Hollis, Heaney, Binkley, and the other authors of this study rightly made very different conclusions from their own data. In the report they wrote for the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, they wrote the following: “One could plausibly postulate that the point at which hepatic 25(OH)D production becomes zero-order [this is the point at which the enzymes converting vitamin D to 25(OH) D are saturated with vitamin D] constitutes the definition of the low end of normal status. This value, as suggested in an equation shown in the article, is at a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 88 nmol/L (35.2 ng/mL). It is interesting that this estimate is very close to that produced by previous attempts to define the lower end of the normal range from the relations of serum 25(OH) D to calcium absorption and to serum parathyroid hormone concentration (ie, 75–85 nmol/L, or 30–34 ng/mL).”
According to the authors of this study, then, the point at which the vitamin D enzymes are saturated and vitamin D “accumulates within the body, both in serum and probably in body fat” is not 40 or 50 ng/mL (100 or 125 nmol/L) but rather 35 ng/mL (88 nmol/L).
The authors used a statistical approach that pooled together data from several studies. They presented most of their data in Figure 4, and the data from one other study in Figure 5 (see below). They did not determine the point at which vitamin D starts getting stored in body fat in particular individuals. On the contrary, they used a statistical approach to infer the point at which this occurs in their entire study population. Now, if you compare Figures 4 and 5, looking for the point at which the slope of the line dramatically changes, you will see that it changes at a higher level of 25(OH)D in Figure 5. Dr. Cannell seems to have used the data from Figure 5 to say when vitamin D gets stored in body fat in “virtually everyone” as opposed to “the average person,” but in fact the authors stated that they did not use the data from Figure 5 to determine this point because a different and apparently inferior method of measuring vitamin D levels was used in that data set.
So, we are back to the authors’ original conclusions, that vitamin D saturates its activation enzymes and starts getting stored in body fat when 25(OH)D levels reach 35 ng/mL (88 nmol/L).
The second problem is that this study does not “prove” or “show” or “demonstrate” what the optimal or minimal blood level of vitamin D is. The authors state that one could plausibly postulate that the minimum acceptable blood level is the point at which the enzymes are saturated and vitamin D is stored in body fat, but they never state that “we now know the minimal acceptable level.”
The most definitive way to determine the ideal 25(OH)D level would be to conduct a randomized, controlled trial with different levels of vitamin D supplementation targeted at reaching specific blood levels of 25(OH)D and to test the effects of the different levels of supplementation on clinical outcomes, such as bone mineral density, fracture rate, insulin resistance, glucose tolerance, cancer or heart disease.
We do not yet have this type of data. We do, however, have some strong support for raising 25(OH)D levels to at least 35 ng/mL (88 nmol/L). For example, as the authors of the study we have been looking at pointed out, similar attempts to use statistical approaches to define the 25(OH)D level that maximizes calcium absorption, maximally suppresses parathyroid hormone (which leaches calcium from bone), or maximizes bone mineral density have suggested similar results. A recent randomized, placebo-controlled trial showed that supplementing insulin-resistant women with 4,000 IU of vitamin D per day for six months reduced insulin resistance and had the most powerful effect in women whose 25(OH)D level was raised to over 32 ng/mL (80 nmol/L).
What about higher levels? The evidence is conflicting, and some of it indicates possible harm. For example, a study in the American Journal of Medicine published in 2004 found that in Americans aged over fifty, the maximal bone mineral density (BMD) occurs around 32-40 ng/mL (80- 100 nmol/L). Among Mexican Americans, BMD continues to rise a little after this point, but for whites it plateaus and begins dropping off around 45 ng/mL (110 nmol/L) and for blacks it begins dropping off even before 40 ng/mL (100 nmol/L).
If 50 ng/mL (125 nmol/L) is our minimal acceptable level, this study would seem to suggest that those of us who have “acceptable” levels of 25(OH)D would have lower bone mineral density than those of us who are moderately deficient. And that premise just doesn’t make sense.
Another study published in the European Journal of Epidemiology in 2001 found that South Indians with 25(OH)D levels higher than 89 ng/mL (223 nmol/L) were three times more likely to have suffered from ischemic heart disease than those with lower levels—and of course with such a dramatic elevation of heart disease risk, the risk may have begun increasing at levels substantially lower than 89 ng/mL.
Neither of these studies was designed to show that high levels of 25(OH)D cause decreases in bone mineral density or increases in heart disease risk, but it is possible. As I especially emphasized in my Wise Traditions and Medical Hypotheses articles on vitamin K2, bone resorption and blood vessel calcification are prominent symptoms of vitamin D toxicity in animal experiments. I also emphasized the role of vitamins A and K2 in protecting against vitamin D toxicity. So, even if these levels are in fact harmful, they may only be harmful or may be primarily harmful in the absence of adequate vitamins A and K2. The presence of the other fat-soluble vitamins could even turn these levels from harmful to beneficial.
Nevertheless, what we need in order to show that levels higher than 50 ng/mL are helpful or harmful are vitamin D supplementation trials comparing the effect of different doses resulting in different blood levels on clinical health outcomes, and similar studies examining the interactions between vitamin D and the other fat-soluble vitamins.
Lifeguards in the tropics can reach blood levels in the 50s and 60s naturally from sun exposure, suggesting these levels are “natural,” although lifeguards in Israel have twenty times the rate of kidney stones as the general population.
Kidney stones may be the most sensitive indicator of vitamin D toxicity and are a symptom of vitamin A and K2 deficiency. Thus, I suspect these levels are healthful in the context of a diet rich in vitamins A and K2, and if my levels were to reach this high in the summer sun while I was eating such a diet, I certainly would not worry.
But if you are trying desperately to maintain year-round 25(OH)D status between 50-80 ng/ mL using vitamin D supplements, you have entered the land of speculation. Enter at your own risk.
THE FAT SOLUBLE ACTIVATORS
The key finding of Dr. Weston Price was very high levels of “fat-soluble activators” in traditional diets. No matter what the particulars of the diet—whether in the frozen north, the Alpine highlands or the tropical South Seas—traditional peoples consumed plentiful amounts of vitamins A, D and what Dr. Price referred to as Activator X—now determined to be vitamin K2—from seafood, organ meats and the fat of grass-fed animals. It is difficult to obtain adequate amounts of these activators in Western diets, partly because government agencies have demonized the foods that contain these vitamins, and also because the industrializaton of agriculture has taken most livestock off pasture.
Properly processed cod liver oil is an excellent source of vitamins A and D, and this is why we recommend it for westerners, especially in preparation for conception, during pregnancy and lactation, and for growing children. Unfortunately, while the need for vitamin D has received considerable recognition in recent years, many researchers have spoken out against vitamin A and especially cod liver oil. Chief among the detractors are Dr. John Cannell of the Vitamin D Council, and Dr. Joseph Mercola of mercola.com. This article, which is necessarily technical in parts, serves as part of the ongoing debate on this subject.
For background and more information, see www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/1622.html. This article combines two recent blog postings by Chris Masterjohn. Visit his blog at www.westonaprice.org/blogs/.
FIGURE 4. Plot of the relation between serum concentrations of vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D after 18–20 weeks of treatment with various doses of vitamin D3. Triangles represent subjects from study B; circles subjects from study C; squares subjects from study F. The regression line is a least-squares fit of the data to a combination exponential and linear function.
FIGURE 5. Plot of the relation between serum vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D in study D only. As in Figure 4, the regression line is a least-squares fit of the data to a combination exponential and linear function.
From the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 87, No. 6, 1738-1742, June 2008. Used with permission.
This article appeared in Wise Traditions in Food, Farming and the Healing Arts, the quarterly magazine of the Weston A. Price Foundation, Summer 2010.
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Solgar Cod Liver Oil?
I’d like to know if the nutrient ratios of Solgar’s Norwegian Cod Liver Oil Softgels are acceptable.. each capsule contains 1250 IU vitamin A, 135 IU vitamin D, 28mg EPA and 28mg DHA.
After suffering from low energy, musculoskeletal pain, poor balance, and depression, among other things, for a number of years, I began to feel better after taking large amounts of vitamin D. And I do mean significantly better, like the difference between night and day. Moreover it only took a few weeks of supplementation at 8,000 IU per day of D3. I have dropped back to 5,000 IU a few times but find that I just feel better at 8,000 IU. I will get my blood level checked again soon, but I doubt that I’m anywhere near toxicity.
I can only speak for myself, but vitamin D3 supplementation has literally given me back my life. Regarding cod liver oil, I would not take the stuff. I feel there’s a far greater chance of vitamin A toxicity than from vitamin D, and would feel safer eating the cod itself and forgetting about the oil from its liver.
I don’t understand how you can recommend taking cod liver oil during pregnancy when it is known that excessive amounts of vitamin A cause serious birth defects. Also, we have been supplementing with vitamin D3 this most cold and snowy winter (1,000IU kids, 4,000IU me and my husband) and there were only 2 minor colds. My kindergartener has not missed any school!
It doesn’t sound as i you have read the many other good articles on this site yet. Please do, this is the history of the vitamin A discoveries; http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-saga/
This is a good study on the importance of A and D together as it is found in nature; http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-on-trial-does-vitamin-a-cause-osteoporosis/
And this is the original study from the 1930’s with the many tribes Price studied, their pics and their histories as recorded by Price; gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html
There is no need to fall or the fear of vitamin A. As shown in the articles posted above, when found in ratios with one another (in particular- 1000 iu’s of D for every 100,000 iu’s of A) both cancel out the other’s toxicity, and indeed promote beneficial values of both substances. A can be a phenomenal tool when used this way- for example- I lost a number of teeth because of retaking all my childhood shots to get into nursing school. This has caused me many years of health problems, not the least of resulted from chronic diarrhea and tooth loss- yet I have been controlling pain and inflammation by high dose vitamin C and magnesium- when these recently were not enough, I added 200,000 iu of vitamin A and the pain subsided. I was already on 5000 iu of D for years. And took daily doses of 25,000 IU of A. I cannot take NSAIDs because of their propensity to cause me ulcers, or worsen one that was caused by ibuprofen, neither can I take narcotics- so upping the A was a wonderful relief. ( I have been an unemployed licensed nurses for 5 years due to the obama recession believe it or not, so have not had the money to pay a dentist (non toxic of course- look up the Smoking Teeth on Youtube)to get these worked on.
“I lost a number of teeth because of retaking all my childhood shots to get into nursing school”
I don’t understand how taking shots caused you to lose teeth? Are you sure it wasn’t something else? There was a comment from a poster on another article (forget which one) who was talking about increased tooth sensitivity from increased vitamin a intake.
Warren Canavan says
Vaccines are full of toxins. I would speculate the A, D and K was used up in the stress of having these put into the body and having to detox.
Laurel Blair, NTP says
Reply to Olga
There are a number of reasons why Chris Masterjohn and the WAPF recommend cod liver oil during pregnancy. For starters, Weston A Price observed healthy people around the world consuming far more vitamin A than the 10,000 IU that is considered the safe limit, and these people showed no evidence of birth defects. The studies that claim to show increased birth defects from higher doses of vitamin A do not distinguish between synthetic and natural vitamin A, and the people who Weston Price studied only consumed natural vitamin A from foods like liver and butter. The vast majority of the preformed vitamin A that people consume these days is synthetic, as the sources of natural vitamin A have been demonized (egg yolks, butter, liver, cod liver oil). People just don’t eat these foods much anymore, and so any study that claims to show birth defects from vitamin A is really showing defects from synthetic vitamin A. Synthetic vitamins are not the same and they affect the body in different ways.
Cod liver oil is high in both vitamins A and D, which each protect against the toxicity of the other. While the doses of vitamin D you mentioned taking are probably ok in the short term if you started with a vitamin D deficiency, in the long run you’re better off increasing your vitamin A intake as well, to protect against vitamin D toxicity. Personally, I have seen nothing but benefits from taking cod liver oil.
What cod liver oil brands do you recommend during pregnancy?
Jon Doh says
Soy, K2, A, D, and calcium.
As I have been reading through the information available online, it appears that there is no satifactory solution to the apparent dangers of soy consumption, if one is to attempt to improve bone density, and combat hardening of the arteries. K2 is necessary to properly use calcium supplements to improve bone mass and K2 is necessary to combat arterial calcification. From what I see, the only high quantity source of K2, if I’ve understood what has been written, is soy. http://www.betterbones.com/bon…min-k.aspx There is a new synthetic K2, if you can actually find someone who sells it, but your articles describe problems with synthetic vitamins, so who wants to go there? So, what do you suggest to improve the K2 intake to a sufficient level to combat hardening of the arteries without consuming any (too much) soy? And in what ratios do you take the vitamins K2, A, and D3?
Update on Vitamins A and D
🙁 Well, first of all the long article written was full of everything but dosages
that were not written for people who aren’t scientists.What about IU’s or mg.?I also read the interview with Dr. Mercola, whom I have followed for many years.I am confused as to who to believe about the A and D issues!Cod Liver oil is another ????,to take yes or no?? Maybe I will just stick to Vit. D3 supplements and rely on our intake of Vit A with our fresh eggs, eaten daily, and forget about supplementation.What a befuddlement!! LG Dec.4 2011
WHAT ARE THE RECOMMENDED PROPER SUPPLEMENTATION RATIOS BETWEEN VITAMINS D3, A AND K2? SHOULD DOSAGES BE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER OF EACH ONE OF THESE VITAMINS? AND I’M ASKING IN LAYMAN’S TERMS OF IU, G, MG, MCG. I DO SUPPLEMENT, BUT IF TOXICITY COULD BE AN ISSUE IN SUPPLEMENTING, IN ALL THE RESEARCH THAT I’VE DONE BETWEEN THESE VITAMINS I HAVE NEVER BEEN OFFERED A STRAIGHT ANSWER. I AND SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I KNOW DISCUSS THIS ISSUE AND WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE AN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION…….THANK YOU
1000 IU for babies- so that tells us the piddly 400 mg commonly used is waaaaaay too low for the frail elderly who have a lot of catching up to do. And for the rest of us- 5000Iu is the average needed for adults- keep in min d, when we go in the sun on a good UVB day (not possible for most of the year in my latitude) we make 20,000 IU’s in our skin, all other factors being present- proper cholesterol in our diets as it is used to MAKE D in OUR SKIN!
Statins probably ruin that function.
A 5000-20,000 IU of A. The lowest for normal adults the higher for higher needs like me- I take 25,000 and have been urged to take 50,000 IU of A.
K2 is made from natto, not at all fraught with the same dangers as regular soy providing it is organic and not GMO, the DRI is 120 mcg (12 mg) for an adult male- It can be found in 500 mcg (50 mg) doses at online vitamin stores. This is much better than a few years ago- we could only buy it commercially in 5 mg doses. So they are getting better at production or perhaps being ALLOWED higher production by the all knowing FDA. It can also be found under the name MK4 and MK7. It can be found naturally in aged cheeses. I recommend using your own home grown sheep, cow or goat milk.
It looks as though the decimal point may have been dropped in the parenthetical milligram equivalents. 1000 micrograms = 1 milligram. So, 500 mcg is one half milligram (0.5 mg) and 120 mcg is slightly less than one eighth of a milligram (0.12 mg).
Confusion: few readers know what nanograms/milliliter means in daily life
I have the same questions as the other commenters: what is the proper ratio of consumption of Vitamins A, D, & K2 as expressed in IU, or mg? I’m only 30 and I already know my bone density is not what it should be. I’m drinking a half gallon of raw milk every week and occasionally taking a cal/mag supplement which is a good start, but it seems very important to know good sources of K2, and the proper supplmentation regimen I should be on! Otherwise, I could easily be shooting myself in the foot with the wrong supplements.
How are you doing now, since it has been a few years since your post? The Weston A Price site here has an awesome article http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-on-trial-does-vitamin-a-cause-osteoporosis/ And VVitamin A can be taken safely up into 200,000 as long as there is at least 1000 IU of Vitamin D. Now, a good couple of books on D are The Power of Vitamin D by Sarfraz Zaidi, MD, and Jeff Bowles The Miraculous results of Extremely High dose Vitamin D, My experiment with Huge Doses. Dr. Zaidi has his practice in Sunny S. CAlifornia, and decided to check D3 status as a routine, and found only ONE, One! patient had optimal blood levels- She was a lifeguard, spending 5 days a week and at least 5 hours a day in the sun in a bathing suit. How’s that for 15 mins on arms and face? He found that on average he commonly recommended 10,000 IU’s a day, I myself have done the 100,000 IU a day experiment for 4 months and it straightened out my toenail fungus. Surprise, and nice. My usual dose is 10,000 IU.
K2 is supposed to be 200 mcg per 5000 IU od D3. I take more so I buy natto powder and capsulate it or take 1/2 to 1 teaspoon. As a powder, it is nutty flavored, mixes in yogurt OK. Also when I can get my goats milked I feel better on that too. Don’t forget, bones also need boron (2-3 mg), zinc (15-50 mg, amino acid chelated if you can find it) copper (2 mg) vitamin C (2000-4000 mg) and we already get too much phosphorus. (300mg is the dose, Calcium 1200 mg and now they say Magnesium equal to calcium- I get at least 800 mg. ) Phosphorus and potassium are so abundant in foods because NPK is what the main field farmers routinely use on crops and nothing else. This is why foods are deficient in calcium/magnesium. Cheap dolomite would do a lot to help that- this is true of your home plants too.
Jessica Lowther says
‘K2 is supposed to be 200 mcg per 5000 IU od D3’. Hi Is that for Mk4 or Mk7 or both?
This business of the lifeguards in Israel, where is the evidence that their rate of getting kidney stones has anything to do with vitamin D? Seems a bit irresponsible to thrown that in there, sounds like a spurious scare tactic.
The lifeguards high sun exposure resulted in high vitamin D which increases calcium absorption, which in the absence of adequate vitamin K2 can contribute to calcium stones in the kidneys.
Allen Gabriele says
I am not clear from the article whether A or D is the numerator and what units to use in figuring the ratio. Thanks
Reply to Allen
You want no more than 10 times as much vitamin A as D in International Units (IU).
So are you saying take for example 10,000iu of Vitamin D3 then 100,000iu of Vitamin A?
Tim Boyd says
I wouldn’t say that exactly. That is a pretty high dose but the ratio is OK. Less than 100,000IU of vitamin A might still be OK but if you are taking 100,000IU of vitamin A you should have at least 10,000IU of vitamin D.
How do we know if we’re getting that ratio if the Fermented Cod Liver oils that you recommend not only don’t list the amounts of A and D, but don’t even test for them?
Or do you have another brand to recommend?
Tim Boyd says
They do test for them. Results are published here – http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/TestData/index.cfm
Will Mitchell says
How does one get such a ratio of A and D? Is it because we can get the D from the sun? Foods never seem to have such a low ratio of A to D without adulteration like in the case of “high-vitamin” CLO which has had D added.
A lot has been said here, but what is the most important thing and has been neglected is that you take Vitamin D, you need to increase your calcium intake or you are in trouble. To my experience, this is really important.
Kevin James says
“Dr. Linday and her colleagues offer a suggestion: poultry studies suggest optimal A-to-D ratios between four and eight.”
This seems to suggest the optimum ratio is between 4:1 and 8:1 vitamin A to vitamin D. So that means 20,000-40,000 IU vitamin A for 5,000 IU vitamin D. I took this ratio and got vitamin A toxicity symptoms very quickly.
Then I read this article, also by Chris Masterjohn:
It talks about a study that involved doses of 40,000 IU vitamin A and 300,000 IU vitamin D (wow!). It says that in the group that received both vitamins, there were no side effects. This seems to reverse the ratio. That’s 1:7.5 vitamin A:vitamin D.
I took some sublingual vitamin D, and the depression I was experiencing that I thought was caused by the retinol I was taking disappeared in minutes.
I hope this helps with some of the confusion that many commenters are having.
Old comment, but I may know where the confusion may lie.
The article doesn’t tell us whether this 4:1 – 8:1 ration of A to D is in international units, by mass, or my moles. I’m guessing mass.
1 IU vit D = 0.025mcg; 1 IU vit A = 0.3 mcg (Note that 1 IU of vit A is more than ten times as massive)
Converting from a mass ratio of 4:1 – 8:1, we get IU ratios of 1:3 – 2:3; with an average ratio of 1 IU vitamin A to 2 IU vitamin D. That’s more in line with the study you mention.
Jeanmarie Todd says
Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see in here where you actually stated the optimal A:D ratio. Previously, the WAPF had said it was 5:1. Has that changed? There are some very different figures in the comments, and I’d love to know whether I need to change my dosages.
Yes, the article is very poor for clarity. VERY POOR. People are looking for answers and are well aware of diet-dictocrats. How about giving a normal answer? Vitamin A: D, looks like 1:4 – 1:8. That is, Vit A 10K IU: Vit D 40k IU or 80K IU. Should I dare ask for clarification? ? ?
@Corioa: Maybe they wanted people to actually read the article and not just google for quick answers to throw vitamins in your mouth. Yes the ratio stated was between 1:4 – 1:8 (D:A), so if you are getting 5,000UI a day of D3 I would recommend starting at the low end (1:4) with 20,000UI of Vitamin A. If after 1-2 weeks you are unhappy, increase by small increments periodically and see how you react to it. Personally I would not recommend super high vitamin A doses, like 100,000 UI in any circumstance, although that seems to go against most people’s beliefs.
Geez. It seems still hard to get solid info on Vit A, D and K2. I woke up last night, again, with searing eye pain. This has been going on for a year, and I have had my eyes dilated and checked twice. I layed in bed and thought “This has to be Vitamin A deficiency.” I’ve been taking Vitamin D, and stopped with the A years ago when it became so unpopular. I keep trying to eat beef liver, and so far, it’s not happening.
Today I’m going back to the store and pick up some Cod liver Oil with the higher A content. I may also supplement with A for awhile. My skin is not good now, and my nails have peeled and become extraordinarily weak. As I write this I realize… gee, it all adds up.
I have had an unusual issue with K2. Whenever I have taken it, I get pretty immediately depressed. I finally decided just to eat natto, once or twice a month. I’m wondering if I’ve just got my ratios wrong… (VitD – 5,000 daily, lots of carrots and colorful vegies, natto)
john mazura says
SHAME…..THIS ARTICLE LEAVES MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS…I’M BEING POLITE ABOUT THIS ARTICLE!
I am so confused by the article and all of the comments. So the bottom line is nobody really knows what the ratios are! A lot of speculation, but not real facts. What annoys me about the article is that they use measurements that normal people do not understand….why even bother writing an article and publish it on a website if you are not writing it in plain English????? Really not happy about so much confusion. I am trying to figure out how much Vit A, D and K2 to give my daughter….an impossible task.
Wayne Shaffer, Jr. says
Yeah, that really was kind of like a fire that generated a ton of smoke and very little light. I appreciate details, but only when presented in a clear and organized way, and accompanied by an “executive summary” to bottom line things.
Try again, please.
reza zandi says
I take anti convulsants and need vitamin d3. I am trying to figure out the proper ratio. My best results were from 4k vitamin d3, 10k vitamin a.
I am wondering what happens if I supplement vitamin d3 AND get sun exposure during the hours that vitamin d3 is produced from the sun. Can I over load? Should I lower vitamin d3 supplements in the summer? Maybe half them? Keep the vitamin A?
There is no answer other than getting your serum vitamin D levels checked. I live in California and many people that claim to get sun end up with deficient levels of vitamin D (<20 ng/dL). Supplementation also does not produce a set change in serum levels, either, so blood tests are the only real answer.
However, the take away message from the WAPF is that with natural vitamin A, K2 (MK4 as far as we understand), magnesium, and zinc, in the context of a traditional diet, the potential for toxicity is dramatically reduced. Make sure the vitamin A you are taking is not a retinyl palmitate. The only supplement form of vitamin A that is acceptable is sourced from cod liver oil, but watch out and read labels when you receive the product since a lot of manufacturers have cheapened their products by using retinyl palmitate instead of purely cod liver oil. Country Life and Now brand used to have cod liver oil sourced vitamin A but they have cheapened them with retinyl palmitate.
When in doubt, there are extra virgin cod liver oils available that, while expensive, are genuine sources of consistent levels of vitamin A, since Dr. Price noted the large seasonal variance in vitamin A in dairy products. The only other consistent source of vitamin A is liver, which also supplies a myriad other nutrients. We must always keep in mind not only seasonal variance in nutrient content, but also regional variance as well as variance from breeds of animals, so relying on dairy and eggs for vitamin A and D is not a good idea.
Like some of the other comments I just wanted a safe ratio of vitamin A to D. This is too
technical and confusing.
I disagree with all the comments complaining that the article wasn’t plain enough. Everything was perfectly explained and presented.
Things like this can’t be boiled down to a three sentence answer. Some of the content is slightly technical, but I, and I expect a large section of the audience, appreciate that as well.
No offense, but there’s no shortage of articles elsewhere that have been dumbed down for people that have no interest in the particulars.
I took am looking for the optimal Vitamin A to D ratio. How much Vitamin A should I take with Vitamin D 2,000 IU?
Currently taking Vitamin D, K2 and magnesium, and want to add Vitamin A, but not sure how much is safe.
Just wanted to add that I have read the article and comments here, and the A:D ratio varies from four and eight, to three and five. One commenter said it was an A:D ratio of four and one. I’ve searched elsewhere on the Web and the answer is hard to come by.
Various articles talk about the synergestic relationship between A and D (K and magnesium too) but I’ve seen no mention of a optimal A to D ratio.
I am one of those maintaining levels above 50ng/dl, and my levels have been in the 60s using 5,000 IUs of vitamin D per day in addition to the type of diet recommended by WAPF.
To claim that this is in the land of speculation seems strange in light of other recommendations throughout this website. Elsewhere on the WAPF it is estimated that traditional diets may have had 50,000 IUs of vitamin A and here it is recommended a ratio of A to D of 4-8:1. If consuming 50,000 IUs of vitamin A, the low end of the ratio is 6,250 IUs of vitamin D, and on the high end 12,500 IUs. Considering that for a 180 lb male with reasonable body fat levels and healthy digestion that 5,000 IUs of supplemented D3 in addition to a traditional diet (the actual amount of D in the diet is too difficult to determine, but say another 1,000 IUs between egg yolks and dairy) results in mid 60s ng/dl, this seems to be right in line with the recommendations of the site.
However, the claim that traditional diets may have contained 50,000 IUs of vitamin A per day based on Price’s claim of “ten times” the level of the U.S. at the time is already questionable, not to mention what is required to achieve this amount per day makes it all the more questionable. Cut in half to 25,000 IUs, this would still result in a vitamin D intake within the 4-8:1 ratio of 3,125-6,250 IU, so my taking 5,000 IUs in addition to diet would fit me right in this range and results in consistent mid 60s ng/dl.
Particularly in the context of adequate vitamin A intake through liver, egg yolks, dairy, and cod liver oil source, along with supplemental MK4 since seasonal variation is too great to rely on food alone (and the “high vitamin” butter oil available does not state how much vitamin K2 it actually contains so I don’t trust it), it seems very strange to treat this as something even questionable. The vitamin D council’s recommendation is obviously wrong simply due to their stance on vitamin A, but with sufficient magnesium, zinc, vitamin A, and K2, up to 80ng/dL appears perfectly normal.
What would concern me is if this level is achieved through the fermented cod liver oil apparently still recommended by the WAPF despite the fact that the primary form is D2, not D3 based on the analysis provided by the manufacturer. This has not been adequately addressed to my awareness by the WAPF, and considering the consensus of the inferiority of D2 to D3, I would be concerned with achieving serum vitamin D levels over 40ng/dL using this source. To say that it is “natural” is not an adequate answer, for it may accumulate in the livers of the cod as a result of algae consumption *because* it is a less bioavailable form, and while cod may have adaptations to deal with this, high levels of D2 in humans is questionably and certainly a zone of “enter at your own risk.”
It is also noteworthy that zinc and magnesium inadequacy or deficiency is very common, and food sources typically are inadequate to restore levels based on experience. This is also not addressed by the WAPF, which typically does not recommend supplemental forms. Those that are very active are even more deficient in these minerals and the only food source that has high levels are oysters, but for magnesium no such food is known. I understand concern with the amino acid chelates expressed by the WAPF, but insufficient levels of magnesium seems even more risky considering the high level of fat soluble vitamins recommended by WAPF. One alternative at least for magnesium is topical magnesium chloride from natural sources, which is entirely WAPF-friendly. Personally I cannot maintain adequate zinc status without supplemental forms, so without any known side effects of high quality chelates, I would rather take that risk at this time than to have inadequate levels particularly when consuming a high level of fat soluble vitamins. I think we must also keep in mind that Dr. Price did not select just any traditional people to study, but those with robust health, which may have created a selection bias that tended toward those in areas where their food was particularly rich in nutrients. The Swiss are an excellent example, whose dairy was so mineral rich due to the glacial run-off that watered the pastures. Price also indicated that dairy sourced from the east and west coasts paled in comparison to that from an area of Texas due to the soil conditions. With this considered, I am less uneasy with supplementation, since I do not live in an area known for very high soil quality. Even the WAPF-approved Organic Pastures dairy in California has Holstein cows, which produce a lower-quality milk that is lower in minerals compared to traditional breeds, so this of course cannot be compared to the dairy intake of the native Swiss Dr. Price studied!
Liz Pavek says
I hear/read all kinds of conflicting advice about Vitamin D dosages. I lived in Alaska most of my life, and in Minnesota and Utah for the rest of it. I consider myself Vitamin D deprived. I have heard some doctors advise not to take more than 1,000IU per day, and others who are alarmed at that recommendation and advise 5,000IU or more.
My own opinion tells me that the higher dosage may even be too low. I always take cod liver oil, and have done so since babyhood in Alaska. How do I figure my daily intake?
Corey G says
If you’ve been taking it for a while now I think the best way is to get your blood levels tested
can anyone explain why someone ingesting many vit a rich veggies and fruits daily, cooked and raw as well as ingesting 1-2 tsps of cod live oil would have a vit A deficiency??
It must be poor absorption due to stress or not eating 3 meals but only 2 perhaps?
I also ingest the A veggies with oil as vit a is fat soluble not water soluble?
Can anyone help me with this? Many thanks if so!
Maureen Diaz says
Hey there B,
Our best guess would be simply that depending on age, gut health, and other health-related factors, our ability to convert the pre-cursors to true vit A is often limited. This is of course why it is important to also take in pre-formed Vit A from animal sources such as pastured eggs, organ meats, etc. Consuming your carotenoid-rich plant foods with fats, and lightly cooked, will increase your conversion and absorption. But don’t forget to feed the microbes in your gut that do all of this good work! This means including full-fat, pastured yogurt, kefir, and cheeses along with fermented vegetables. Hope this helps!
plus I have sufficient vit d from cod liver and sun and vit k2 from natto and tons of dark green leafy veggies. thank you!!
Cheryl T says
I am sensitive to cod and cod liver oil but I don’t know how to find a vitamin A that doesn’t have it. I understand the oil-based ones absorb better and my sister said she did not get help with her eyes (which is what I need, desperately) until she used an oil-based vitamin A. What would you suggest?
Katy May says
I’m also sensitive to all fish oils (triggers severe depression – I’ve tested it for many years, it’s definite, happens to a significant minority, don’t know why). I know many ppl on this site poo-poo retinyl palmitate / retinyl acetate as a vitamin A source but it does very well for me. I take D3/K2 sublingual with Thorne Research drops (10 drops under the tongue daily = 5000iu), I might drop it back a bit during summer if I’m getting plenty of outdoor sunshine on my skin. I have also found sublingual vitamin A to work best for me. I’m currently experimenting with how much. Somewhere between 20,000iu and up to 50,000iu some days. I believe I’m one of those ppl who struggle to make retinol from beta-carotene and have been deficient all my life, and I can see visible results with higher doses and particularly with sublingual delivery. As they’re all fat-soluble vits I’m trying to top them up and then I guess I’ll have to experiment with the sweet spot for a maintenance dose. Good luck!
Good day. Can you please give me an answer is it okay to take Vitamin-A as a format of retinyl acetate? Can it make problems?
here is the source, but its an old study, 1933
Vitamin A, Bone Mineral Density, and Hip Fracture: The Epidemiological Evidence
Just twelve years after vitamin A was discovered as a constituent of cod liver oil and butterfat, a team of researchers led by Takahashi established in 1925 that it produced toxic symptoms (now called “hypervitaminosis A”) in rats when fed as a natural fish oil concentrate at 10,000 times the required amount. In 1933, these researchers showed that this vitamin A-rich concentrate was toxic to bone in extreme doses, resulting in spontaneous fractures, and in 1945 Moore and Wang confirmed that these effects were attributable to vitamin A by inducing them with purified retinyl acetate, which is, like retinol, a type of preformed vitamin A. Researchers have since reported skeletal lesions in response to extreme doses of vitamin A in dogs, pigs, rabbits and chickens. In humans, an increase in blood levels of calcium (caused by the leaching of calcium from bone), bone pain, and other bone-related symptoms sometimes accompany hypervitaminosis A.6
Yet it is not such toxic, wildly excessive doses of vitamin A to which modern researchers are attributing osteoporosis, but normal, even relatively low, non-toxic intakes of vitamin A common in modern societies – intakes far below those of the tribesmen and villagers whom Weston Price found to have superb skeletal health.
Can you please give me an answer is retinyl acetate a problem? Is it same good as retinol palmitate or retinol?
Is retinyl acetate toxic to human body? Is it same good as retinyl palmitate?
Jimmy Walter says
I read a long time ago that the only cases of Vitamin A toxicity were from supplements, never from natural.
I have also read recently that 25(OH)D is not the best measure of vitamin D levels, that 1,25 DIHYDROXY is the best measure and vitamin D3 supplements should be avoided, just natural and sunlight is the best
What say you?
From what I’ve read, I guess the suggestion would be, 20,000 Vit A to 5,000 Vit D would be acceptable.
Also, if I try to get Vit A from cod livers, how much would I have to eat in a day?
Fermented Cod Liver Oil has been tested several times and results published online, but my notes say that 1 tsp FCLO contains 7,500-25,000 IU Vitamin A, and 3,500-10,000 IU Vitamin D. As you can see, there’s quite a range there, but the A to D ratio equates to 2.15:1 to 2.5:1. Hope that helps a little!