Why should we eat our liver… and other organ meats? Are they really as nutrient-rich as we’ve been told? And, if we do decide to go for it, what’s the best approach to adding them to the diet? James Barry, chef, author, and founder of Pluck, organ-based seasoning, sheds light on the subject of “offal” (organ meats). He explains why organ meats are, essentially, “Mother Nature’s multivitamin.” He gives a brief history of organ meat consumption, explains cuts we may be unfamiliar with, and shares ideas for how to go about including them in the diet (including stating with cuts that are most similar to muscle meat). He shares clever ways to eat liver and other organ meats, too!
Visit James’ website: eatpluck.com
Check out our website: westonaprice.org
Listen to the episode here:
Within the below transcript the bolded text is Hilda.
Why should we eat liver and other organ meats too? Why bother? They can taste funky. Are they as nutrient-rich as we have been told? If we do decide to go for it, what’s the best approach to adding them to the diet? Our guest is James Barry. He has had an interesting career of over sixteen years in the culinary field. He started out as a private chef. He then began a high-quality food delivery company in the LA area.
He’s known mostly as the man behind the Pluck, an organ-based all-purpose seasoning. James provides some history of organ meat consumption, explaining where we have been and why we’ve got away from it all in the first place. He explains why organ meats are mother nature’s multivitamin. He shares how they ease into eating them. He offers suggestions for adults and kids alike. For example, he gets quite specific at times offering the best ratio of liver to muscle meats and lists off a number of nutrient-dense organs that we may be unfamiliar with.
Before we get into the conversation, I want to let you know that the show has an app. You can now find each episode without a third-party app or podcast platform. We are so excited about it. Just go to your App Store, type in Wise Traditions Podcast in the search bar and download it. It’s free and available on all Android and iOS phones. This is for you so we can have a more direct line of communication.
For a letter to the editor from a recent journal. For many years, I’ve been consuming raw milk from a pasture dairy in France called Gaborit. However, because of COVID and closed borders, I was unable to obtain this milk and was forced to drink substitute milk from Switzerland. When I began to have trouble with my teeth, I suspected the possibility that the local raw milk might be thermized or heated, although not to the temperature of pasteurization.
What most aroused my suspicion was the experience of a friend supposedly milk intolerant and who hadn’t drunk animal milk for many years. She sneezed and had red eyes a few minutes after having taken one sip of this local raw milk. She made it clear to me how irritated she was by this experience, and she fervently blamed herself for giving in to my suggestion.
However, I must admit that I was the first to be surprised by the reaction she developed quickly after drinking one sip. I had concluded that she was one of the very few people who were truly intolerant to animal milk, even if it were raw. Nevertheless, a few weeks later, she agreed to test the Gaborit milk from Jersey Cows, which again, I had access to. She not only had no reaction to it but she even felt good that she drank a whole glass half an hour later.
During the eleven months without the Gaborit milk, I developed five small cavities as verified by my dentist. I had an appointment to have them filled and while waiting, I was able to get the French milk again. I went to the dentist and she couldn’t believe her eyes, in the space of less than a month, during which I was once again able to obtain the real certified raw milk from France. All the previously damaged teeth had calcified and hardened as a self-healing to the point that she told me that there was nothing more that needed to be done.
The Gaborit milk comes from Jersey Cows grass-fed and guaranteed without silage. The dairy is in the region of Maulevrier, with an oceanic climate. The Jersey cows graze on a rich and varied soil maintained organically for more than 40 years. The pampered animals are fed mainly on pastured grass and in winter on grass and Alfalfa hay. Bernard Gaborit’s raw butter, true nectar, has a magnificent golden yellow color that testifies to its nutritional richness.
One more thing of interest, the Gaborit milk can easily be kept in the fridge for a week or even ten days in the winter. When it finally curdles, its taste remains smooth and delicious, a bit like fresh yogurt. The Swiss milk has a much shorter shelf life and, in the end, it has an unpleasantly sour taste, and even gives the impression that the product is no longer good for consumption. It goes to show that the quality of milk varies greatly. We need some technique to determine whether milk is truly raw and of high quality. This is a letter from Michelle in Switzerland.
Michelle, thank you for your letter. We always appreciate hearing stories like this. Even stories that make us wonder, ask questions and stay curious. You, too, can write us a letter to the editor for inclusion in the journal. Just write us at Info@WestonAPrice.org and put in the subject line, “Letter to the Editor.” It can be a testimonial of some health cure or health therapy that has helped you or a question about something in our journal or show. Thank you much for reading, hasta pronto.
Welcome to the show, James.
Thank you for having me. It’s not only great to be talking to you but I have to say I am super excited to be on this show specifically because the Weston A Price Foundation has been huge in my life. I started cooking. I went to culinary school and then I’ve first got Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. I then went to my first Weston A Price Foundation Conference. This organization has been huge part of not only life but my food paradigm. I would say it’s the biggest influencer of my philosophy of food.
Organ meats are some of the highest concentrations of naturally occurring vitamin D of any source.
Did you want to go to cooking school before you read that book or no?
I learned about the book at culinary school. We learned about a lot of books but this one, when I’ve got it, I was like, “This speaks to me.” I will admit it’s not the easiest read because it’s dense. We can all identify with that but you can’t deny how powerful the information is.
It’s not just a cookbook. Sally goes through the vitamins, the oils, the things to avoid. I’m like, “There is a lot.”
It is its own school and program.
I like to say that it’s nutrient-dense because there’s much in there. It makes sense.
Hands down, it has been the most influential food paradigm of my career, from the soaking of grains, seeds, and nuts to the culturing and the ancestral foods, and all that. That has been the mainstay. Diets and trends come and go but the Nourishing Traditions paradigm has not left. It sticks.
It stood the test of time. That’s why I love it as well. Nothing is off the table. Speaking of that, the Foundation is big on needing nose to tail and with a special emphasis on organ meats because they are nutrient-dense. What’s funny to me is one of the terms for organ meats is offal and I’m like, “That is not a happy sounding word to me.”
It refers to the parts of the organs they fall off when they are butchering the animal. Both of us agree with this. It’s everything but awful. It’s the most nutrient-dense. Its Mother Nature’s multivitamin. Organ meats are high in protein. They are incredible. When we think about organ meats, a lot of, are thinking of the little organs but I will encapsulate a little bit of what offal technically refers to.
We talk about the sweetbreads, which are the thymus and pancreas. There’s bone marrow. They don’t include the bone when they talk about offal but they do include the bone marrow, tongue, lips, ears, skin, tail, blood, which we see a lot in sausages and blood pudding. There are the ones we all talk and know about liver, kidney, heart, spleen, testicles, ovaries and brain.
There’s tripe, which is the stomach lining, in Menudo, a Mexican dish that’s made with beef stomach. There are the feet, which is also another cultural food. There are the chitlins, which is the pig intestines. It’s sad to me that almost every other culture has got some organ meat term or food in its lexicon but we don’t have in the US. From my research Chitlins is the closest that has a slave term. It came about because that’s what slave owners were given to the slaves. They were giving the intestines and keeping all the pig meat for themselves, so it became a custom food for those people. There is no American organ diet food or recipe.
Not that I can think of. Maybe scrapple?
I don’t know that one. What’s scrapple?
It’s made with all the leftover parts of the pig. It’s akin to bacon.
Is it a diet?
No. It’s maybe a regional. I know Sally talks about folks in Maryland eating scrapple. You can get scrapple at the grocery store. Generally speaking, you are right. Our diet is woefully low in these very nutrient-dense cuts. You were talking about the slaves. I wonder if it’s almost a classist thing because the rich felt like, “These cuts are beneath us,” not realizing what they are saying has beneath them is the best part of the animal.
That’s definitely been there historically. I know in World War II, they were worried about there being a meat shortage, so they set about trying to educate people on organ meats. That’s even when they came up with other names for it. It was known as offal but they started calling it variety and organ meats because they were trying to change people’s perspective and not see them as this awful tasting thing or this cheaper meat, or product but that’s absolutely one of the issues. People were not eating them but then it worked. The education worked and after World War II, people started eating organ meats. What happened? I don’t know.
Hotdog contains up to 85% of animal parts that many wouldn’t normally embrace.
I don’t know either, except that I interviewed somebody one time who said it became difficult. What happened was urbanization. Everyone started living in cities and didn’t have access to the whole animal, and transport some of those cuts became difficult. They didn’t have the refrigerated train cars yet or there was only room for much, so they left behind some cuts. I want to ask you about nutrient density, which we have mentioned that phrase several times in this conversation already. What is in these organ meats that makes them very good for us? Can you get specific about the vitamins and minerals contained?
A better version would be, “What’s not in them?” because there’s so much. You have a very high concentration of Vitamin A. You have B with all the B vitamins, not just a couple but all of them, particularly B12. You have vitamin C, D, E and K. You then have essential minerals like iron, calcium, a good amount of copper, magnesium, selenium, phosphorus, potassium and zinc.
To me, that’s why I call it Mother Nature’s multivitamin. When of what’s in a multivitamin, I even look at like, “What’s in a prenatal vitamin?” It’s all this stuff. Something we do associate organ meats is with people getting pregnant. Are you trying to get pregnant or are you pregnant? They always say eat your organ meats. That’s the one subset of people that gets encouraged to eat organ meats but I’m here to say, “We are a nutrient-deficient society. We should all be eating organ meats.”
Honestly, I have never heard that phrase of like, “When you are pregnant, eat organ meats,” I don’t think the twenty-somethings or anybody in the childbearing years is hearing that anymore, which is unfortunate. If you are in that age bracket and you are reading this, we have some ideas for you. I’m hoping not to get organ meat but pick James’ brain to find out ways in which we can introduce more of these into our diet. That was the brainchild, the whole idea behind Pluck.
I created Pluck, which is an organ-based seasoning. I thought if people aren’t eating organ meats, maybe because they don’t have access to it, they don’t know how to cook with it or they have this incorrect perception of it not tasting good. My thought was, “If I can make it taste good and easy to use, there’s no learning curve around how to cook with it.” That’s where Pluck came from.
It’s an organ-based seasoning. It has liver, kidney, heart, spleen and pancreas. It’s freeze-dried powdered organs, and then I combine them with these organic herbs and spices. It offsets that organy taste if you are someone who doesn’t jive with that. What you get is something that’s savory umami. It’s good. It goes with everything. You have tried it. How would you describe it?
We love it. We put it all over our popcorn and meat. Umami is one way to describe it and also adds a little tangy spice. Being Latina, our family enjoys that flavor set and the combination you have made. I know you have a variety of flavors that you are developing and making accessible to people. It’s tremendous. I do have a question. It’s no substitute for the real deal. What we want is for people to get more organ meats in a bigger percentage in their diet?
You can never take away eating the real organ because it’s 100%. My mix is not 100% organ blend, even though I am going to make that available. Getting the actual organs is, hands down, always going to be your best bet. However, what I like about Pluck is that I use it more often.
I may make organs and make them once a week or once every two weeks, and you get a lot of nutrients from eating at once a week. With Pluck, I use it all the time. As you mentioned, we use it on popcorn. My kids, when they have toast, they put it on toast. We put it in almost every meal. It’s like I’m getting these small doses but infrequent use, which then makes an accumulative effect. I see there’s room for both.
What organ meat was the first one to grace your table when you started figuring out how much we need them in our diet?
I did not grow up with organ meats. We did have when we had a whole chicken, there were the chicken gizzards. That was my first introduction to organ meat. The liver is always going to be the first one because it’s the most nutrient-dense of all the organs. It’s the powerhouse. It’s like Superman if it was a hero. Superman has always been seen as the most dominant superhero. The liver is like the Superman of the organs. It’s incredibly nutrient-dense.
You mentioned this, Weston Price encourages nose-to-tail eating. Here’s the thing. Most people, when they are already know what are they most eating? It is the liver. They are not getting all the other organs. My whole thing is let’s try to get the other ones too because they all have benefits. The heart has Coenzyme Q10. Spleen is high in vitamin C. They all have great absorbable iron. Spleen has folate, which is important. They all have folate but each organ has maybe a little bit more or less than the other.
James, can you break it down what does CoQ10 and folate do for us so we can understand the benefits of these minerals?
I said the kidney is high in folate. Folate plays a role in making and repairing DNA, and producing red blood cells, which is also why it’s in a lot of prenatals. The heart has Coenzyme Q10, which is vital for energy production and the prevention of oxidative stress, which we all experience every day. It’s also key for cardiovascular health, which makes sense.
I want to throw this out there. There is an ancestral concept of supports like I’m mentioning the heart and then I’m saying, “It supports cardiovascular health.” There is a philosophy that whatever organ you are eating, that is supporting your organ. If you eat spleen, it supports your spleen. If you eat heart, it supports your heart. That’s true when you look at the vitamins that are predominantly in those organs.
The liver, we already mentioned it is high in iron but it’s also one of the best sources of retinol, which is vitamin A. That supports skin issues. Vitamin a is such a necessity and we are all deficient. Spleen, I mentioned it has vitamin C. Vitamin C in the spleen helps iron to carry the oxygen from the lungs to various parts of the body. It’s really good for that. Also, this is cool. Particularly what’s going on with COVID is that organ meats are some of the highest concentrations of naturally occurring vitamin D of any source.
That should get folks excited about trying it. Where can you get it? I don’t see it laid out among the packages of ground beef and hotdogs at my grocery store.
It’s challenging. It’s funny that hotdogs contain not the organ meats we are talking about but they do contain a lot of the parts that I was talking about what offal stands for like lips and ears. Probably the parts of the animals most of us aren’t gravitating toward but hotdogs do contain up to 85% of parts of the animal that we wouldn’t normally embrace. Pick and choose whether you want to eat hotdogs.
Most people think, “Hotdogs are junk food,” but the very thing they might be turning their noses up at it’s something that we might consider taking it more of, especially if it’s pasture-raised. I guess that leads us to where we source our meats. I know we do get ours from an Amish farm in Pennsylvania or our farmer’s market. It’s a nice one. You can buy with confidence that way. Talk to us about what you suggest.
Sourcing is key because the health of the animal is going to equal your health from eating it. I look for that. You mentioned pasture-raised 100% grass-fed cows or any animal. You can get organs from other animals as well. Farmer’s market is one of the places you can look. There are some online sources. You can look it up that they will ship. The biggest issue is that not every butcher has a plan for all of the organs.
Here in the US, it’s easy to find liver, kidney, and heart, then there’s tongue and things like that. Getting some of these other things like the spleen, pancreas, testes, ovaries, and things like that is challenging. You do have to find a local butcher, maybe become part of a cow share because, in that circumstance, they can’t sell the organs on the open market but they can sell them directly to you as long as you are part of the share. I would vote for that. Try to join some cow share. That’s going to be your best bet in terms of getting parts of the animal that you normally wouldn’t find anywhere else.
When you consume traditional foods, the body remembers that. It knows it just wants to bask in the nourishing glow of that food.
Sometimes it takes making an inquiry. We like to make tongue tacos in our house. You have to do this weird peel-y thing after it’s slow-cooked but the meat is good. It holds on to the different flavors of the spices we add. The point is, we had to ask at the farmer’s market if they sold tongue. At first, I don’t remember the guy saying that they did but then they started bringing it because we were asking for it. He did have a way to get it from the slaughterhouse to us. That was a boon but you didn’t see it laying out there among the bacon and other cuts.
It’s a great point. In any situation, when in doubt, ask because if they realize there’s a market for it, then they will start making it available.
You started to introduce the liver into your diet. How did you prepare it? Was it a pate?
I was a little intimidated by it because when you buy the liver, it’s big. You get it frozen. I always felt this a little bit, this anxiety of like, “I’ve got this huge organ that I’m still new at cooking. If I defrost the whole thing, how am I possibly going to use all of it? That’s where my head went then that’s where I started to come up with this idea of like, “What are some techniques that people can use to ease into organ meats that they are not overwhelmed?”
One of them is when you buy a beef liver, leave it frozen and instead of defrosting the whole thing as it’s frozen, grate it into the food. It comes off as little shavings and those shavings either melt right into a stir fry or you can combine them with your ground meat. It’s such an easy way to get that liver into any food without anyone knowing, first of all. You don’t defrost it, so it’s always frozen. It preserves it longer. You keep it in your freezer and keep using a little bit every time you cook.
What percentage do you recommend putting into say, ground beef if you are going to make a meatloaf or burgers?
I have found personally that anything up to 25% is good. When I say good, I mean you won’t know that it’s in there. It doesn’t affect the texture and the flavor. When I have tried a mix that was around 30% or more, I found that the actual texture of the ground meat was different. If you are new with organs, when that difference is present, it makes you go back in your turtle shell a little bit if it’s something you are sensitive to.
If you are an organ pro, that’s not going to affect you. I definitely recommend when you are easing into organs for the first time to start like you would with an animal when you are changing their food. Maybe start at first with 5%, then move to 10%, to 15%, just ease into it. I pretty much guarantee as long as you go up to 25%, no one is going to know in there.
Which organ meats are most like the muscle meats or the easiest to transition to? We did say liver may be in the form you have been talking about but what about a heart? The heart has a very beef-like texture.
You mentioned one of them was tongue as well. The heart and tongue are much more muscle meat than they are in organs. It makes sense in the form of a tongue because you don’t think of that as an organ. It is of a muscle underneath that layer that you talked about. The heart is more of a muscle than an organ. When I’m recommending to people how to ease into organs, I always recommend the very first organ to eat.
We mentioned shaving the liver but I recommend chicken hearts. It’s because they are mild in taste. The same with beef heart. It’s more mild than any of the other organs but chicken hearts are even milder. It’s because they are like a muscle, the texture is so similar to muscle meat. If you chop it up, they probably won’t even know. There won’t be as much of stepping into something new. It will feel very familiar to them.
I know in Peru, they have Anticuchos, which is like beef heart kebabs and I have seen chicken hearts.
Argentinian food, they show up with chicken hearts a lot on the kebab. Chicken hearts take on the flavor well. They cook quickly. None of this is 30-minute preparation. They cook in five minutes. For all those parents out there that are rushing for food, chicken hearts are easy. What I recommend is, also you can take the beef liver and you can slice it thin.
We have a recipe on our website, EatPluck.com. You can marinate it, you can dehydrate it, and turn it into beef jerky but it’s with the heart. It’s good. I was introduced to that by a cookbook called, It Takes Guts. When I tried it, I was blown away. It was so good. It’s such a great alternative to all those sugary overly sweet beef turkeys that are out there.
I have heard of that cookbook, by the way. It sounds amazing. You mentioned feeding your family or the kids. A lot of kids seem like they turn up their noses to anything that’s not a chicken nugget. How can you get them to eat a chicken heart?
Whenever you are trying to get kids to introduce anything as you either add cheese or you coated in something, fry it or coat it in cheese. Those are the obvious secrets to feeding a picky eater. It’s tough. Honestly, that’s why I created Pluck. Pluck is truly a gateway to organ meats. I haven’t met a kid yet that doesn’t like it.
What’s cool about it is this speaks to something. I will give you an example. When I first had bone broth and even when I first ate organs, there was something that happened in my body where I visualize it as something curling around this nourishing comfort of warmth that happened in my body. It almost felt like my body was receiving something that had been missing.
I see that happen when kids try Pluck. They can’t stop. They keep dipping their finger. It’s almost like when you eat butter. You can’t stop. It’s such a fascinating thing. It’s a testament that when we get these very nourishing, traditional foods in our diets, our body remembers and our body knows. It wants more. It wants to bask in this nourishing glow of that food.
Take action and let the action provide the inspiration, which then provides the motivation.
That sounds wonderful. It makes me happy to picture kids dipping their fingers in the Pluck or eating the chicken hearts when they are coated with something or fried. I saw two kids walk into school. They must have been like 8 and 6, a brother and sister. The boy was eating a bag of Cheetos and the little girl was eating a candy bar. This is a little segue but I was saddened. Even though I’m looking at them thinking, “That’s sad.” How many of us with the means are still shortchanging our families because we are not willing to dive into something that’s a little bit uncomfortable?
I used to be in the teaching field before I went to culinary school. Somehow, I used to be in the health classes. I used to work with kids about their health. I was blown away. Most kids are eating exactly the way that you described. They are eating Flamin’ Hot Cheetos. Those were the popular brand when I was in these schools and they we drinking some soda. That’s their breakfast.
They are acting up in class and the teacher is like, “This kid needs to be on meds,” when actually they are undernourished.
The first thing I always look at is food. At that time, I was trying to educate the kids on what they put in their body. This is a funny and sad side. When I decided to go to culinary school, it was expensive and I didn’t have the money. I was going to go a year before I went. I spent that year trying to raise money to do it. One of the ways I did it, which is illegal but I’m outing myself, I was in the schools as a substitute teacher and there was nowhere for kids to get water. There were tons of soda machines but there were no water machines or anything like that.
I saw a market and I started buying water, freezing it because the kids loved it as an ice. I would bring water and sell them the water for $1, not expensive. I was using it to slowly build my money to pay for culinary school but I did it by buying them water. How both sad and astounding is that? They didn’t have water at these public schools. This is in LA, by the way. This was when I lived in LA.
I do have my friend Hilary Boynton, who’s known as the Lunch Lady who was in California trying to transform the school lunches because we are all aware of how much nourishment can transform a kid’s behavior and health. Dr. Price started a lunch program, too. He started feeding kids and it’s one good nourishing meal a day in the school. It was a big bowl of soup with some sourdough bread and butter, and maybe some raw milk. The kid’s behavior transformed from that one bit of nourishment. Giving the kids water or selling it as the case may be was certainly preferable to some of the stuff that they have access to.
Something we forget and when you were talking about how as parents, we don’t want to shortchange our kids. One thing we want to remember is that the palate changes. It’s a living and breathing thing. Initially, your kid may be thinking that they only like these, so you as a parent might think, “My kid only does this.” You can take steps towards changing and adapting their palate.
One way to do it is to start incorporating organ meats, whether it’s Pluck as your initial start or the shaving of the liver or incorporating them in some way. Umami flavor of organ meats, which is completely natural, is one of the ways to start changing the palate because umami is the fifth unique taste. What it does is it makes all the other taste receptors taste better, so it awakens your palate in a sense.
I hear what you are saying about being able to shape the palate because it’s always astounded me how some kids will be like, “I don’t like shrimp,” because they didn’t grow up eating shrimp. It’s a very foreign taste to them. The kids in Alaska are eating shrimp all the time and they were like, “This is great,” because they are accustomed to it. Why not do what we can to shape their palates with nutrient-dense, life and health-saving foods.
Let’s not forget, they have discovered that the palate starts forming when you are in utero. When the baby is inside the mom, that palate is forming very early. Even then, mom is like, “That’s a great time to start.” Eating a little bit of spicy food to get your kid acclimated to the spiciness. I personally think that’s important.
Another thing is eating organ meats. Cultured vegetables, a good time to start doing. Incorporate these sour and umami bitter flavors to start shaping that palate. I have two girls. My wife ate a lot of cultured vegetables and the other, not as much for whatever reason. It’s so true. We have gotten both our kids on culture vegetables. We helped ease the second one in but the oldest has always been into culture vegetables.
Start them young. I love it much. This has been a great conversation. You have motivated me to include more organ meats in my diet and I already eat a bunch but I’m grateful. I want to close by asking you the question I often pose at the end. James, if the reader could do one thing to improve their health, what would you recommend that they do?
What I normally recommend is to drink more water or get better sleep. Those are very important towards making good decisions, particularly sleep. If you get good sleep, then you make better decisions. The support I would want to give your reader is something that I’m trying to embrace more and more, which is to not wait for the perfect moment.
Don’t wait until it feels right. Take action now. What happens is a lot of us look for inspiration to then find the motivation to then take action. What I’m suggesting is take the action and let the action provide the inspiration, which then provides the motivation. Change the order of those things and you will find, A) There’s no perfect moment and, B) It’s pretty easy to take action when you are not waiting for something to make it okay.
You don’t have to wait for the stars to align. You can act now. James, thank you much for your time.
Thank you for having me and thank you for your continued great work in the world.
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About James Barry
James Barry’s 16 + years in the culinary field started as a private chef. James had the good fortune of cooking for celebrities such as Tom Cruise, Mariska Hargitay, George Clooney, Gerard Butler, Sean “Puffy” Combs, Barbra Streisand, and John Cusack. Not wanting to limit the audience of his healthy and tasty style of cooking, James started Wholesome2Go, a healthy, high-quality food delivery company that served under his leadership in the Los Angeles area for 8 years.
Most recently, James launched my first functional food product, Pluck, an organ-based, all-purpose seasoning. It’s the first of its kind and an amazingly easy and delicious way for people to get organ meats into their diet. James also co-authored the recipes in Margaret Floyd’s book Eat Naked and co-authored the follow-up cookbook The Naked Foods Cookbook. He most recently co-authored the recipes in Dr. Alejandro Junger’s book, Clean 7.🖨️ Print post