
Is there any “up” side to covid? What lessons can we learn from the past year?Ā JoelĀ Salatin, the man behindĀ PolyfaceĀ FarmsĀ inĀ Swoope, VA, is an author, speaker, and leader in the regenerative farming movement. Today he dares to suggest that we examine what is happening and what our role has been in ushering it in. What are we doing to nurture good health? What are the restrictions doing to the same, and to our economy? He asks important questions and offers common-sense adviceĀ on where to go from here.Ā
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Listen to the podcast here:
Lessons from this Past Year
Episode Transcript
Within the below transcript theĀ bolded text is Hilda
What if COVID-19 has a purpose and lessons to teach us? This is episode 314Ā and our guest is JoelĀ Salatin. Joel is the man behindĀ PolyfaceĀ FarmsĀ in Swoope, Virginia. He is an author,Ā speaker and leader in the regenerative farming movement. Always outspoken,Ā Joel dares to examine the lessons we may learn from COVID.Ā On the farmĀ when animals get sick,Ā farmers try to figure out what went wrong. Nature’s default, Joel suggests is wellness.Ā We have to ask ourselves, what have we done that has led us to where we are? Are there steps we can take to support our immune systems?Ā What‘sĀ the problem with heavy–handed restrictions?Ā Are these worse than the illness itself?Ā
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Welcome toĀ the show,Ā Joel.Ā
It’s great to be with you, Hilda, always.Ā
YearsĀ ago, we talked about the situation.Ā Even though you’re not a doctor, you had a feeling that staying away from each other and wearing masks might not be the answer. Why is that? Where did that come from,Ā Joel?Ā
I’m a big believer in immune function andĀ theĀ adaptability of our own bodies to be able to adapt, to adjustĀ andĀ to speak into a new situation.Ā Intuitively,Ā it didn’t make any sense to me that we’reĀ going toĀ social distance,Ā we’reĀ going toĀ wear masks or we’re going to get vaccines.Ā This is a new thing.Ā Are weĀ going toĀ wear masks forever?Ā My problem at the beginning was,Ā what’s the end game?Ā Unless you get herd immunityĀ which was something we heard early onĀ and then it waned. You didn’t hear about it.Ā There were many people talking aboutĀ herd immunity. It comes on. That’s part of cultural adaptation to aĀ new thing.Ā How many flu strains did weĀ have?Ā There‘sĀ a dozen.Ā Things mutateĀ and we see it on the farm. Things come through.Ā YouĀ have this initial difficult adaptation time.Ā You brush yourself off.Ā You go onĀ and you don’t hear about it again.Ā
When the animals on your farm are exposed to disease,Ā some don’t make it.Ā Those that do, are they stronger?Ā
Yes.Ā I’ve never believed in a bunch of crutches thus part of the problems with completeĀ herd-likeĀ vaccinations,Ā wormersĀ andĀ those kinds of interventions. When you give everybody a crutch, then you don’t know whoĀ theĀ strongĀ andĀ the weak are.Ā You give things less chance to adapt.Ā You exercise that immune system a little bit. People knowĀ thatĀ I drink out of the water tank with the cows. The cows are drinking out of that side,Ā I drink out of thisĀ side.Ā They’re slobbering out there.Ā I don’t drink itĀ all day, every dayĀ but aĀ little swig of pond water once in a while out of aĀ creek, these are all things that I doĀ to exerciseĀ theĀ immune system.Ā
Would you dare to say that by staying apart from each other, we are making ourselves weaker in some way?Ā
Yes.Ā Dr. Zach Bush has talked about this at length about how my breath vapors interact with your breath vapors.Ā This is all part of the immunological exercise that yields strength to us. Not debilitating fragility but makes us stronger. I created a furor early on in the thing by saying,Ā “I want it. Let’s get it over with.Ā I’ll brush myself off.Ā We’ll go on.“Ā I’m not trying to be disrespectfulĀ toĀ people that have suffered with it. I’m not coming from a position of fear. I wonder if some of the resurgencesĀ areĀ simply fromĀ theĀ stress ofĀ people that are fixated on paranoia.Ā On the farm,Ā in our animals, we know the number one reason anything ever gets sick is stress.Ā It could be hygiene. It could be fear. They’re scared of something. It could be dietary.Ā They are not getting enough nutrition.Ā There are numerous reasons.Ā Stress is a big umbrella wordĀ but among people, since we have a huge brain compared to the size ofĀ theĀ brain of the rest of the animal, it’s reasonable to think that our brains have a bigger influence on our stress level than animal‘s brainsĀ withĀ thinking capacity.Ā We have this capacity to sit and think all day about fearful things and worrisome things.Ā When you do that, you get stressed.Ā
That depresses our immune system function and makes us more vulnerable.Ā We’re at this amazing gathering that the foundation has put togetherĀ andĀ I saw a fellow here with a shirt that says,Ā “Fear is the virus.“Ā What do you think of that?Ā
There’s a lot of truth to that.Ā The fact that we as a culture, have completely abandoned theĀ overallĀ notion that we can,Ā without crutches, without cheating, without vaccines, without other things,Ā affect our health, ourĀ immune systemĀ andĀ that we can do something.Ā Imagine if the culture had taken the attention it put on masks,Ā social distancing and vaccines.Ā Let’s take those three.Ā We put as much attention and invested the amount of energy and money in truly building an immune system as it did in those three things. Where would we be? We might be in a whole different place.Ā
Coca-Cola and Pepsi–Cola would be out of business. Mountain Dew would be out of business.Ā There would be certain things. Maybe McDonald’s would be out of business. There would be things that would be out of business.Ā Things that would be in business would be grass-based agriculture, local food systems.Ā People cooking in their kitchensĀ wouldn’t be getting hot pockets and preprocessed everything.Ā There’d be a revival of domestic culinary arts as people learned how to take whole foods, raw foods and prepare them.Ā We would haveĀ larders.Ā We would have dehydrators,Ā jerky bakersĀ andĀ all sorts of things.Ā There would be a loss of a lot of things.Ā We wouldn’t sell as many candy bars.Ā Hershey chocolate might have a bad yearĀ but in general,Ā there would be more than compensation for those losses in rejuvenated new things that are healing within the culture.Ā Ā
I’m thinking ifĀ theĀ disease were to sweep through, let’s say your cattle, sometimes there is a time forĀ anĀ intervention.Ā Maybe one reason we’re responding to this virusĀ with a lot of death and suffering, is it in part because something radical needs to happen and we haven’t done all the proactive stuff?Ā Ā

Anytime you’ve had as many animals as we’ve had on our farm and have on our farm, there are times when you have issues.Ā I can tell you in my years of farming, every single time we’ve had a statistically,Ā critical problem.Ā I’m not talking aboutĀ a chick inĀ 1,000Ā that dies.Ā They’re going to haveĀ that.Ā I’m talking about when you go out and you say, āThis flock doesn’t look good.āĀ They’re sickĀ and outĀ ofĀ 1,000, you pull outĀ 20Ā in a dayĀ andĀ 20Ā more tomorrow. Now,Ā you’re in trouble.Ā We’ve had about six of those episodesĀ and every single time,Ā it’s been our fault.Ā
We didn’t give the right food diet. We crowded them too much. We didn’t give them a good habitat. They were too coldĀ orĀ too hot. There’s something wrong.Ā One time, we bought a bad set of calves from a guy that was vaccinating,Ā corn feeding and all that stuff.Ā We didn’t realize that they wouldn’t be able to make the transition to a more natural grass-based approach.Ā AĀ bunch of them went down and got sick. I’m convinced that nature’s default position is wellnessĀ if things are running well.Ā Sickness is not nature’s default position.Ā If it’s sick, then what did I do to break down the wellnessĀ trajectory?Ā
I feelĀ likeĀ that’s not a question we’re asking ourselves. We’re looking for a solution outside of ourselves as we’re looking and thinking it’s something outside of ourselvesĀ that’s threatening our health.Ā
ItāsĀ likeĀ the average farmer when there’s a sickness,Ā hisĀ first question is,Ā “I must not have used the right vaccine or the right concoction.Ā What am I missing in my medicine cabinet?“Ā Whereas when we see something, our first question is,Ā “What did we do that allow the immunological function to break down in this critter?”Ā Not a single person in our culture, at least thatĀ I knowĀ of in leadership position, expert position at the Dr.Ā FauciĀ level, has asked,Ā “What could we have done?Ā What could we do to build up our immune system?“Ā All we hear is comorbidities.Ā “What created the comorbidities?“Ā
I don’t understand why they’re not talking about that, why they’re not saying,Ā “There’s a weekĀ we’re not going to drink sodas.Ā There’s a week we’re going to stay away from junk food.“Ā Honestly, I want to ask you,Ā why are they not putting an emphasis on things we can do to strengthen our health and our immune system?Ā
Nobody wants to take responsibility that it’s something that I can do.Ā We’re a victimhood society.Ā We love to say,Ā “I’m sick because of something over there,“Ā which means I get well because of something over there.Ā If it’s something that I could do,Ā affect or create myself, then I’m responsible for decisions,Ā for choiceĀ andĀ for all these things. I don’t want to be responsible. I want to do whatever the orthodoxy saysĀ and expect that somebody in the orthodoxy will fix me if it’s not the right thing. That’s the mentality we have.Ā
The other aspect, too,Ā isĀ money.Ā People don’t make anyone else any money. If I’m sick, I’m going to need a lot of medications, a lot of doctor’s visits.Ā I’m perpetuating a big system but if I’m well, I’m not giving anybody aĀ cent.Ā
That speaks to the whole Wendell Berry ideaĀ ofĀ what’s wrong with us.Ā HeĀ creates more GDP than what’s right with us.Ā He writes about this inĀ The Unsettling of AmericaĀ eloquently.Ā The bottom line is as a culture, we think we’re pretty clever.Ā We have not been clever enough to identify what is a cultural asset and a cultural liability.Ā If I stay well, that doesn’t add money to the GDP but if I get sick and I need doctors,Ā medications,Ā hospital beds, around the clock nursing care, all those are jobs thatĀ areĀ all expenditures of money. GDP goes up.Ā From a cultural accounting system,Ā sickness creates more GDP than wellness.Ā
For example, we have aĀ creek in front of the house. If I go out and pollute thatĀ creek, the cost of cleanup does not come off national GDP. It adds to GDP. That’s jobs. It’s energy. We have to bring a truck. We have to buy petroleum.Ā My position is that if a culture cannot capture the difference between an asset and a liability, we’re doomed.Ā “We’ve got to build more prisons.“Ā Prisons are GDPĀ accelerators.Ā Every prison we build should be viewed as a liability. It should come off of GDP.Ā JuvenileĀ detention centersĀ shouldĀ come off of GDP. Every time somebody spends money on a divorce attorney, it should come off of GDPĀ but we don’t have thatĀ kind ofĀ accounting system.Ā
Speaking of accounting, I’ve noticed that the rich have gotten richer.Ā If you go, you can see stats that the head of Amazon,Ā Home DepotĀ andĀ people that were already raking in the money are multibillionaires.Ā Ā
This whole COVID thing has been the biggest transfer of wealth from poor people to rich people of any other thing that’s ever happened in this nation.Ā Think about how big Amazon wasĀ inĀ February 2020.Ā Was Amazon big?Ā It was big. Think about this though.Ā In the last months, Amazon doubled.Ā There is a huge transfer of wealth powerĀ and now we’re getting into censorship.Ā This has created the whole misinformation log.Ā For the sake of COVID, we cannot afford to let minority views be heard.Ā If you writeĀ The Contagion Myth, we have to ban that book. We can’t let minority views get out.Ā Under the guise of controlling a contagion, we have allowedĀ cultural control and lack of choice, even lack of ability to choose a different narrative. We haveĀ stopped that in a profound way.Ā My bottom line is that the externalĀ things surrounding COVID, the fallout, the result of it is far worse than COVID itself.Ā
In light of everything you’ve said,Ā there’s this huge redistribution of wealth. Socially, we’re afraid of each other.Ā Health–wise, we’re compromising our immune system by staying apart from each other and living in fear. What do you see coming down the pike?Ā
I don’t know what’s going to come down the pike. One of the things I don’t doĀ is prophesy. AĀ couple of things that I wouldĀ likeĀ to see is a slow emergence.Ā In fact, the negative effects of the vaccine are gradually filtering out.Ā A big headline in the paper was,Ā “The vaccineĀ isĀ upĀ and soĀ is COVID.” You get some of these little headlines.Ā We’re seeing that the heavy lockdownĀ states, California, New YorkĀ faredĀ no better than the non–lockdownĀ statesĀ likeĀ Florida and Texas.Ā What I wouldĀ likeĀ to seeĀ coming down the pike is additional validation of the gentle effect versus the heavy–handed response to it. I wouldĀ likeĀ to see leaking into the press some of the side effects of the vaccine.Ā
Light bulbs start to go on in people’s heads.Ā We’re hearing about face rashes with children wearing masks all the time.Ā Dentists are concernedĀ thatĀ all this masking is going to create dental problems. This is going to have a long tailĀ andĀ the tailĀ from 1985 to 1990Ā when pharmaceutical companiesĀ were freed up in 1985 from suits to 1990 when we had our first food allergy discussions and thingsĀ likeĀ that. Five years isĀ aĀ long tailĀ and aĀ lot of these things do have a long tail.Ā It’s going to be interesting to see yearsĀ from now, are we going to start seeing some real serious issues?Ā WillĀ somebodyĀ somewhere in the mainstream media connect that back to a response? My biggest problem with the whole COVID thing is I don’t know what the exit strategy is. They’ve painted themselves into a paranoid hole.Ā At what case level doĀ weĀ say,Ā “You can take your masks off?”Ā At what case level do we say,Ā “You can fly in an airplane withoutĀ a mask?”Ā I don’t know what those are.Ā
You don’t knowĀ andĀ I don’t think they know.Ā
That’s even scarier.Ā You would think if they had a policy, they would say,Ā “WhenĀ this benchmark happens, we’re going to do this.Ā When thisĀ benchmarkĀ happens, we’re going to stop doing this.“Ā You would think there would be some specific benchmarksĀ likeĀ the red, yellow and green fire danger in California. They’ve got the little dial. Somebody is measuring humidity, wind speedĀ andĀ biomass.Ā They’re putting it on the dial.Ā Nobody’s doing that with this.Ā I don’t see an exit strategyĀ and it’s sad.Ā
You said something about gentle versus heavy–handed. Maybe the problem with a heavy–handed is we don’t always see the consequences right away until down the pike.Ā You put it in there thinking,Ā “We’re going to eradicate all these weeds,”Ā when those weeds were what we‘re feeding the birds.Ā You’re missing something.Ā I know you knowĀ about the gentle approach because that’s what you use on your farm. You’ve talked about it being a beautiful choreography between nature and man.Ā
AĀ lot of things that lookĀ likeĀ a problem are a stepping stone to successional regeneration.Ā For example, let’s take a weed. We’ve got a weed inĀ the pasture. It looksĀ unsightlyĀ but it makes a great big taproot that makes a big core going out into the ground.Ā The bottom line is that big taproot makes a big carbon drill andĀ aĀ porousĀ spot for rain to soak in better in that new channel into the groundĀ that will stimulate the germination of a newĀ clover or succulent plant that doesn’t lookĀ likeĀ a weed, that the cowsĀ liked better.Ā It was created by the weed that made a different environment.Ā The soil translocated a different set of minerals and nutrients for the soil to succeedĀ to a different level.Ā
We see it, for example, with the pigs. The pigs go out and they tear up a place. It looks rotten here for a couple of daysĀ then suddenly you see brand new plants germinate from the seed bank that was thereĀ that was maybe years old but those seeds never germinated because there was never enough distributor exercise to get them to germinate.Ā We bring the pigs in.Ā The pigs stir things up.Ā They exercise the soil a little bit and suddenly the seeds say,Ā “We’ve been sitting here waitingĀ forĀ years for this disturbance so that we could germinate.“Ā That’s a lot of whatĀ all this is.Ā I’ve gone on record saying COVID is not a government thing.Ā It’s not a government problem. It’s not anything.Ā

People will find their information. Different groups will publish their different findings.Ā There will be some people that don’t want to write a plan.Ā There will be some people that don’t want to go to a conference.Ā ThereĀ will be some people that don’t want to goĀ toĀ DisneyĀ World. There will be some resort centers that say,Ā “We’re not going toĀ beĀ able to have a conference.“Ā There will be others that say,Ā “We’re going to go ahead.“Ā What I’m saying is society adapts to informationĀ likeĀ the seeds that are in the soil adapt to a newĀ environment in the soil.Ā Just because there isĀ unsightly weedĀ now,Ā itĀ doesn’t mean that’s not part of the trajectory of progressĀ tomorrow.Ā
It reminds me of when COVID happened in 2020.Ā Some people said,Ā “It did give us 20/20 vision.“Ā All I can hope is that people will see what you’re saying. That mayĀ be what we think is a problem isĀ aĀ part of what we need to get to the next level for our health as humanity.Ā
AĀ couple of things that 2020 gave us is a tsunami of homesteaders,Ā urban exodus, work–at–home, a new interest in home culinary arts.Ā For months, theĀ most-watched YouTube video was how to make sourdough.Ā That’s a good thing.Ā ThereĀ areĀ a lot of positive thingsĀ coming out of this. Not the least of which is the ability for people to telecommute,Ā stay at home, shut down the carĀ andĀ turn off the keys.Ā That could do more than electric cars in reducing gas use. The empty store shelves brought people face-to-face with the fragility of the industrial food system.Ā
They’re serious aboutĀ theĀ know your farmer, know your food,Ā theĀ security, the food chain, the custody chainĀ andĀ howĀ fragileĀ is it. We got the tank liner in the lodge in the SuezĀ Canal.Ā That threatened anĀ 8Ā toĀ theĀ 10–monthĀ tail.Ā Here we are at this stage of the game with a brand new awareness thatĀ maybe this industrial long custody global system isn’t quite as resilient as we thought.Ā There are a lot of people thinking that for the first timeĀ andĀ that’s good.Ā
I want to close with a question I often pose at the end, Joel.Ā IfĀ aĀ readerĀ could do one thing to improve their health, what would you recommend that they do?Ā Ā

It would be to write down all the people that you don’tĀ likeĀ and forgive them, all the things that youĀ are in turmoil about andĀ angry about internally.Ā Stephen Covey writes about this,Ā The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, how we fixate on things that are beyond our controlĀ instead of fixating on things thatĀ are within our control.Ā AĀ lot of us are stirred up about things that are beyond our control. I can’t change the fallacy narrative. I can’t change the CDC. I can’t change whatever these things are. I can change me.Ā Think about what I can control and then focus on that.Ā Make a list if you have to.Ā What can I control?Ā What I can’t control, let it goĀ becauseĀ I can’t do anything about that anyway.Ā If we do that, itĀ will helpĀ to laser focusĀ usĀ to invest our time,Ā energy and money in the spots that will give us personally,Ā in our own lives, the greatest marginal reactionĀ and that’s a positive thing.Ā
Thank you so much for your time, Joel.Ā
Thank you, Hilda. It’s always a delight to be with you.Ā
About Joel Salatin
Joel Salatin, 62, calls himself a Christian libertarian environmentalist capitalist lunatic farmer. Others who like him call him the most famous farmer in the world, the high priest of the pasture, and the most eclectic thinker from Virginia since Thomas Jefferson. Those who donāt like him call him a bio-terrorist, Typhoid Mary, charlatan, and starvation advocate.
With a room full of debate trophies from high school and college days, 12 published books, and a thriving multi-generational family farm, he draws on a lifetime of food, farming and fantasy to entertain and inspire audiences around the world. Heās as comfortable moving cows in a pasture as addressing CEOs in a Wall Street business conference.
His wide-ranging topics include nitty-gritty how-to for profitable regenerative farming as well as cultural philosophy like orthodoxy vs. heresy. A wordsmith and master communicator, he moves audiences from laughs one minute to tears the next, from frustration to hopefulness. Often receiving standing ovations, he prefers the word performance rather than presentation to describe his lectures. His favorite activity?āQ&A. āI love the interaction,ā he says.
He co-owns, with his family, Polyface Farm in Swoope, Virginia. Featured in the New York Times bestseller Omnivoreās Dilemma and award-winning documentary Food Inc., the farm services more than 5,000 families, 50 restaurants, 10 retail outlets, and a farmersā market with salad bar beef, pigaerator pork, pastured poultry, and forestry products. When heās not on the road speaking, heās at home on the farm, keeping the callouses on his hands and dirt under his fingernails, mentoring young people, inspiring visitors, and promoting local, regenerative food and farming systems.
Salatin is the editor of The Stockman Grass Farmer, granddaddy catalyst for the grass farming movement. A frequent guest on radio programs and podcasts targeting preppers, homesteaders, and foodies, Salatinās practical, can-do solutions tied to passionate soliloquies for sustainability offer everyone food for thought and plans for action.
Always great to hear Joel. I wish I had been able to visit his farm by now. Next trip east.
What’s the outcome of this “pandemic”….it is to keep us distanced from each other, wearing masks whether or not we submit to injections Big (P)harma wants us to take using the CDC to push genetic altering poisons on us whenever they want.
Shifting us into a robotic/AI society where 5G helps make that a reality, displacing workers, creating more renters than homeowners and removing people from daily decision making situations (limiting people to only voting as their act of citizenry).
Not me. I’m learning about Common Law and continuing my relationships w/ farms by me who are NOT buying the Covid narrative (I’m shocked to say too many organic farms near me are FEARFUL and buy the narrative!). Building my freedom loving community is the outcome of my state’s repressive govt response. Thanks Gov Kate Brown! You’ll made this all possible.