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What if the story weβve been told about foodβabout meat, animals, and what it means to truly nourish ourselves and the landβis incomplete?
Many people today are searching for a way of eating that feels healthier, more ethical, and more sustainable. Some turn away from animal foods out of compassion. Others are working to reconnect with traditional diets and local farms. But what if the answers arenβt as simple as weβve been led to believe?
Our guest today is Abey Rae Scaglione, author of Radical Farm: Animals, Food, and Our Future. Abeyβs journey is anything but conventional. She became a vegetarian at just thirteen years old, driven by a deep concern for animals. Years later, she found herself raising livestock as a regenerative farmerβfacing the emotional, ethical, and ecological realities of producing food within a living system.
In this conversation, Abey shares what it was really like to wrestle with the moral complexity of eating animalsβand why she ultimately came to believe that well-raised livestock may actually do less harm than many plant-based food systems.
She explains how animals play a vital role in restoring soil health and ecological balance, why removing them from agriculture could push farmers toward more synthetic fertilizers and industrial practices, and how regenerative farming offers a path forward that honors both the land and the animals.
We also explore what this means for youβwhether you live on acreage or in a city apartmentβand how small, intentional choices can help you reconnect with real food and more sustainable ways of living.
This is a thoughtful, honest, and at times surprising conversation about food, ethics, and our place in the natural world.
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Episode Transcript
Within the below transcript theΒ bolded text is Kendall Nelson
From Vegetarianism To Regenerative Farmer
What if the way weβve been taught to eat in the name of compassion, health, or even saving the planet is missing a deeper truth? For many people, choosing a vegetarian or plant-based path feels like the most ethical and responsible decision, but what happens when the choice leaves you constantly hungry, preoccupied with food, or searching for the next diet that promises real vitality? What if we begin to understand that there may be no such thing as a completely deathless way of feeding ourselves, that every food system carries consequences for our bodies, for animals and for the land?
This is episode 576 and our guest is Abey Scaglione, author of Radical Farm. Animals, Food, and Our Future. Abey became a vegetarian at just thirteen years old out of a profound love for animals, only to later find herself raising livestock as a regenerative farmer, navigating the emotional, ethical and practical realities of producing food in a living ecosystem. In this episode, we explore how low-fat vegetarianism affected her health, what women should understand about plant-based diets during pregnancy and why animals may play an essential role in building resilient farms, vibrant soil and deeply nourished food systems.
Before we get into the conversation, are you curious about the safety of raw milk? Wondering about its availability? Go to RealMilk.com. Itβs a source of reliable information on real, raw milk. There are articles, blog posts, videos, and podcasts that explain why raw milk is healthy, its amazing benefits, and where you can obtain it in the US. Youβll also find insights on the politics and economics of raw milk and industrial dairy. Go to RealMilk.com, a project of the Weston A. Price Foundation.
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Welcome to Wise Traditions, Abey.
Thank you for having me.
Iβm so grateful youβre here. Your story is such a fascinating one, beginning as a vegetarian at just thirteen and then finding yourself years later raising animals as a regenerative farmer. Iβd love to start at the beginning. What was happening in your life that led you to make that decision so young?
Health Impacts Of Low-Fat Vegetarianism And Seeking Real Food
Iβve always been a really big animal lover, but I was definitely influenced by diet, and fitness, and beauty culture of the time. I had the idea that vegetarianism would be better for my health and that it would help me control my weight. Thatβs really heartbreaking to me now that I understand so much about the benefits of meat and also the impact that all diets have ultimately.
I was also a low-fat vegetarian, and so that was particularly problematic. The low-fat guidelines are just were such terrible, horrible advice and it really affected my life because even though all of that was based on really weak science and corporate influence, as a child of the β80s, thatβs the way we ate and it left me feeling really preoccupied with food.
I feel like I lived with a nagging hunger. Was just such a focus of my life and not in a really problematic way just because of my relationship with food. I went back to eating meat about ten years later, but I wasnβt eating a real food diet. It was still really challenging for me and I was always looking for the next fad diet.
Abey, you were a vegetarian at one point, but then did you also become a vegan and were you doing that through your pregnancy?
I was living in Los Angeles in my late twenties and I first met a woman who introduced me to a lot of the good production methods and raw milk and I think she was actually the one that introduced me to the work of Weston Price. Her nameβs Margaret Floyd Barry and sheβs a functional nutritionist down in the States and that was all really interesting to me. Living in Los Angeles and being really pulled towards plant-based eating and feeling very interested in that.
I did try being a vegan for a period, I tried being a raw vegan. I met back up with Margaret in my early 30s, and I was teaching her at my Pilates studio in Beverly Hills and she knew that that my husband and I were interested in starting a family. I think I was probably asking her about being a fruitarian and her thoughts on that because that was my latest interest of the time.
She said to me, βWhatever you do, donβt have a vegan pregnancy.β It was such an influential thing in my life and Iβm just so grateful because it really sent me down a path of nutrient density and real food and butter and bone broth and I had very healthy pregnancies. I drank raw milk through both of my pregnancies and lots of eggs for choline and was really focused on real food.
Even with my second son, I did actually do the raw milk formula recipe that the Weston Price Foundation gives. I had a lot of trouble breastfeeding both of my boys. My first son, I did the European formula and when my second son was born, and I was struggling again, I felt I had the confidence in myself and also in my source and so I decided that I really wanted to feed him real food and so Iβm so grateful that that recipe was there for me to turn to.
The Importance Of The Weston Price Raw Milk Formula
What was the European formula and what was the difference between that and Sally Fallonβs recipe for baby formula?
It was still a powder which I didnβt feel great about and it just had a much shorter ingredient list. I believe it was called Holle, and it was just one that we could get that it seemed better. It wasnβt ideal but I was also at that time grateful that that was there because I feel like, compared to what I was seeing on the shelves where I was living in California, I could feel better about it. We just really started him on solids as quickly as we could, and my boyβs first foods were egg yolk, liver, and bone marrow, and really true foods.
It was very devastating to me as someone being as natural as I can and again just such a focus on real food to have trouble breastfeeding. It certainly felt like a real big blow. I managed as best as I could and having that Weston Price formula was really so beneficial. Thatβs one of the reasons Iβm just so passionate about raw milk and peopleβs access to it, because then they can make those choices for themselves whereas here in Canada, itβs I mean itβs really challenging to get raw milk. Itβs illegal to distribute raw milk. Living in California, that was really a great thing to just be able to go to the grocery store and get a really good quality raw milk.
Iβm passionate about raw milk and peopleβs access to it because it allows them to make those choices for themselves.
What do you do to get raw milk? Iβm imagining you probably have it on your farm and if so, will you tell me about that and also will you tell me what a day in the life is like on Rockel Heritage Farm?
We raise cattle for beef. We have a dairy Jersey cow, and then we have sheep, and then we raise chickens and turkeys. We grow vegetables and fruit. Weβre very much a mixed farm and so our days very much have a variety and move with the seasons. Having a dairy animal is really important to me. Specifically, because of the challenges I have in accessing it. Even so, I feel like milking a cow has been one of the truly most rewarding things Iβve ever done. I learned to make cheese and all of the different butter and just itβs just the long list of all of the wonderful things that can be done with dairy.
I feel it is so instrumental in my health to have that really beneficial bacteria and itβs such a great protein source and just all the vitamins and I know your readers are going to be pretty familiar with all of the great benefits of unpasteurized milk. It has been really great to learn more about it and you see really first hand when you put that milk out and it clabbers and youβre able to really see that tangible expression of how different it is than pasteurized milk.
What does a day in the life look like for you? Just give me an example of what a typical day might be from waking up to going to bed at night.
Sure. Again, it really depends on the season, like right now, weβre wrapping up with lambing. I farm here with my husband and my parents as well and so thereβs a give and take of whoβs doing what. The chickens, the laying hen chickens are really the constant, the thing that happens every day and then certainly in the summer, we have a lot of new poultry. We have chicks and poults and weβre raising both for meat and then also for eggs with the hens as well. The turkeys are our pest control and so we have those year-round and they free range the farm but we do put out food for them.
When weβre milking, we milk once a day when we calf share, which is when we donβt wean the calf and we just separate the calf for a certain period of time and then the calf gets their share and weβre able to get a good volume of milk. We reunite them after that separation. When we do wean the calf, you get a lot more cream. Itβs really great that way but it does mean usually you have to milk a couple times a day. That was our experience. We pasture our animals as much as possible but in the winter, the cattle need hay, and the sheep need some hay.
During lambing, youβre checking the barn and we end up with bottle-fed lambs and itβs a lot of great animal exposure, a lot of great time with animals which I love. In the summertime, we do gardening as well, in the fall weβre picking fruit. We also run accommodations on our farm as well. Thereβs a lot of moving parts and then weβre trying to preserve food at harvest time so it can feel really very busy in the most times of the year.
It sounds really busy but really wonderful right and youβre raising your two children on the farm as well.
Yeah, and thatβs such a gift to have them to be in nature, to be around animals. Farming is really challenging for sure. Itβs lots of big feelings with raising animals for food and all of the challenges and itβs physical, and itβs outside, but thatβs also whatβs wonderful about it. I really value knowing where my food comes from. I feel like thereβs a lot of freedom and peace in that and truly doing something that I feel is really rewarding and thatβs what drives me to keep doing it and the really good food.
You started off as a vegetarian, you experimented with some other things like being a vegan and then you found real food and sounds like you have lots of real food on the farm. How did eating real food help your relationship with food?
I feel a real food diet has transformed my relationship with food. It has given me the space to no longer be preoccupied with food in the way that I was and leave me feeling really satiated and nourished. I think itβs such a wonderful way of eating because I call it a real food diet but itβs really a way of eating that is looking at is this a real whole food or has this ideally been processed in a traditional way, more of a prepared food. Itβs just made it much easier to make those choices and rather than those fad diets that just truly donβt work.
A real food diet has transformed my relationship with food. It has given me space to stop being preoccupied with eating in the way I once was, and instead feel truly satiated and nourished. Itβs such a beautiful way of eating.
I know you wrote this beautiful book, Radical Farm.
Yes, thank you.
It was so good. Inside it, you talk a lot about the ethics of eating meat and how you struggled with that. Iβd love for you to tell me more.
Wrestling With The Emotional And Ethical Realities Of Eating Meat
When we first moved to the farm, I was really grappling with the emotional complexity of raising animals for food. I was experiencing the health benefits as weβve talked about, and I could see the sustainability and I was learning about soil health and I intellectually understood that there is no deathless diet. It was really challenging to be so involved in the lives of these animals and send them to slaughter. I found myself questioning what we were doing and should I be a vegetarian and is this the wrong choice.
One day on the farm, looking out on this beautiful farm and just having the thought just because itβs sad doesnβt mean itβs wrong. Recognizing that my sadness was not a problem to be solved but rather would motivate me to really care how animals are treated, raised and slaughtered. I began sharing my experience of that on social media and there was a lot of backlash from people who reject animal agriculture. Some of that response was really outlandish and really cruel.
Within that, there were also people bringing up things like the land use and the water use and you canβt feed the world this way, you donβt need meat, all these different perspectives. I chose to listen to what they were saying and dive deeper into the nuance that was so often missing from what they were saying. I talked other farmers and watched documentaries and read books and did so much research into these things and really strengthened my convictions that well sourced animal foods are good for the environment, theyβre good for our health.
My true belief is that we can do more for animal welfare in our lifetime by supporting good farming than we can rejecting all animal agriculture. Thatβs whatβs led me to advocate for the agriculture I do, and I really admire the passion of people who are struggling with eating animals. When you really look at that big picture and understand that there is no realistic way of feeding ourselves that doesnβt involve death, then what we can do is to the best of our ability seek out really well-sourced food. That goes for plants as well. Itβs not that animals are bad and plants are good, itβs really that we need to look at sustainability of all the food that we eat and animals become such an important part of all food production.
You mentioned something about the vegan diet, maybe it doesnβt even do less harm. Explain that.
Why Plant-Based Diets Do Not Do Less Harm
With all food production thereβs through the cultivation and harvest whether itβs animals like the gophers or the deer that are killed to protect certain crops or itβs animals that are caught up in machinery when itβs harvesting or crushed by tractors or killed by pesticides or herbicides. Much of plant-based what has become known as plant-based conventional agriculture is that row crop, monocrop agriculture that comes with its own impact and is got a lot of impact on the lives of animals but also has a lot of impact environmentally as well. You think of a grass-fed cow that it provides so much food compared to all those little creatures that are potentially killed through plant-based foods.
It becomes a question too, I think itβs like thereβs so much more nutrition in that cow as well. Itβs not just about calories, itβs about nutrients. I think that so many people are disconnected from where their food comes from and theyβre not part of the system the way that we historically were. Many peopleβs relationship with animals is through their own pets and it becomes challenging for those who are facing the reality that arenβt just turning away and just not thinking about it at all.
I can absolutely empathize with how people get to that place of thinking that itβs not right. It really is weβre taking care of ourselves and then thereβs our health and then thereβs also just how beneficial animal involvement is for the landscape. Those two things alone, I really think make it an ethical choice. It is okay to take care of ourselves and eat our natural diet as omnivores. Also, when you really start breaking it down, if it was truly about least harm then a grass-fed cow should be an excellent choice.
We can do more for animal welfare in our lifetime by supporting good farming and rejecting all forms of animal agriculture.
Explain that. Explain why maybe your grass-fed cow has a better life than an animal whoβs roughing it in nature.
Thatβs an interesting piece. Itβs just all of the young in nature cannot survive. Nature can be incredibly cruel in the way that the lives of animals and also in the death that they experience. On our farm, we are raising domesticated livestock that have food and shelter, they have medical attention when necessary. Their death is in as low-stress environment as possible. Itβs quick, itβs without suffering. Yet out in the wild, even though in actually quite similar numbers, the deer population in British Columbia, the young die in similar numbers to the lambs that we kill that are born each year, but that deer did not have that easy life and lives as a prey animal in really a lot of fear throughout its life. I feel that itβs important to understand that.
When we talk about the ethics of having livestock and stuff on your farm, the need for cattle on the farm per se, how does that tie into like a mixed farming environment? You have a whole chapter on mixed farming. What do you mean by that?
Ruminant Animals And Their Essential Role In Soil Health And Ecological Balance
Iβm talking about animal involvement and certainly that can be chickens, that can be rabbits and other smaller animals as well. The really amazing thing about ruminant animals though is their relationship, this very synergistic relationship that theyβve had with grasslands for millennia. That those larger herbivores were moving across that landscape, they were pushed by predators and so they werenβt staying in one spot for really long time. They were having that impact on the land and then moving on to the next piece. When farmers really work with the cycles of nature and recreate that through our pasture rotation, thereβs so much of those weβre just working with those natural processes.
With ruminant animals, theyβre helping within that carbon cycle. I think ruminant animals have gotten such a bad rap, cows in particular, for methane production. Yet they have been belching out methane for hundreds of thousands of years and I mean at large, ruminants have, and this was traditionally all of the wild ruminants that were in North America and arguably in higher numbers than we have now of the domesticated livestock and the wild ruminants that are still left. What theyβre belching out that methane, itβs rising into the atmosphere and then itβs being broken down over about ten years into carbon dioxide and water.
Itβs returning to the earth and then those plants that are photosynthesizing are taking up that CO2 and H2O, theyβre pulling that carbon down into the root system. That root system, those root exudates are feeding that ecology below ground. In healthy soil, there is so much life underground. Theyβre able to then itβs just a fascinating relationship because then that ecology below ground is releasing the nutrients the plant needs and then the plant is better able to grow better, a healthier plant, and then that cycle continues. Having that proper vegetative ground cover is such an important part of keeping that cycle going. Also managing the animals such that again that ground is getting the rest it needs.
Itβs really with that impact of the animal and their manure and urine itβs fertilizing and really helping all of that ecology and then thatβs also helping the water infiltration of that land and itβs just a really complex system that we in conventional agriculture really gone awry with separating plants and animals and not letting them naturally benefit one another. Every healthy ecosystem is a balance of plants and animals and so itβs no wonder that weβre running into such problems with what weβve been doing to the soil.
Corporate Influence And Reliance On Synthetic Fertilizers
Youβre painting a beautiful picture of the symbiotic relationship between the plants and the animals and the soils and stuff. Talk to me a little bit more, you touched on it, about the corporate influence. The corporate interests in our food system. Iβd love to hear what you have to say about that.
Itβs a very complex topic and I think it comes everywhere from the processed food side and the influence that the sugar companies is one example have had in shaping that narrative of what we should eat. Also, through what has happened to agricultural practices and the overuse of synthetic fertilizers and that going hand in hand with pesticide and herbicide use. It comes down to money. We see here on this farm, while Iβm so grateful for what we do, you do realize thereβs a reason that people got more and more specialized.
Itβs like youβre focusing on one thing and I like to think there was a lot of good intentions when that was happening and that just weβve had all of these unintended consequences of what those choices ultimately do to the soil and then ultimately to the lives of animals. Now you have like a manure problem, whereas if youβre incorporating that, itβs like you have the manure problem on the one hand and the fertility problem on the other hand rather than letting these systems work as best they can naturally.
Another big piece with the environmental part is that if weβre not integrating animals into our farming systems, then itβs pushing towards a reliance on synthetic fertilizer use. That comes with its own impact both through the fossil fuels utilized to create those fertilizers as well as those out on the fields. When people are suggesting that we remove meat, dairy, or eggs from our diet that burden of food production is being pushed towards what is, in many cases, a less sustainable system.
One of the quotes from your book is that food sovereignty is the original wealth. Iβd love for you to explain that.
Thereβs really nothing more valuable than clean water, good food, and clean air. When weβre able to produce our own food, thereβs tremendous freedom and tremendous health in that. I believe that reconnecting with our food is such an important part of our health. Interacting with nature as well, and really understanding where our food is coming from, and then the ability to have those freedoms to produce the food and get it out to your community and help other people to thrive in those ways as well.
Now you moved to the farm in 2021, I believe.
Yeah.
Do you see yourself living your life out there? What’s in store for you?
I do. I see myself farming. Absolutely. This is a really beautiful place to do it. I feel really grateful for this land that we get to farm, and I feel it’s a lot of hard work, as I said, but I think that for me, just being so close to my food source now is a really important thing for me. I also really love being around animals. It’s such a joy and itβs really grounding. It comes with its own urgencies, sometimes. I really feel it’s something that I want to be a part of.
Profitable ecological farming is a passion of mine because I really want to see this be the way that we feed the world and that we can make those small changes in our food system but ultimately, collectively moving towards better practices. I definitely want to be a part of that and encourage other people to be inspired to be part of that and ways both big and small. Also, really educate consumers so that they can make choices because I think there is so much power and informed consumer demand and that is ultimately like yes, we need more people involved in our food system, producing food in our communities and the resiliency that comes with that. The true change will really come at the consumer level.
Part of that is really helping people understand all of the value that is there beyond just the nutrition. All of the value that we have to food security, and our communities, when we’re getting local food to the environment, the lots of animals. Also, understanding that cheap food comes with so many hidden costs to our collective productivity, mental and physical health, or healthcare system, but so much of that is delayed. So, I think a lot of people they’re seeing the grocery store is somewhere where they can cut costs, and I certainly empathize with that. Of course, there’s all sorts of socioeconomic factors that are at play. It’s recognizing that those exist will still really advocating for people to make the most sustainable choices that they can for the foods that they want to eat.
In your book, it’s so funny because you can’t put it down. It’s beautiful and it’s almost like a love story. A love for regenerative farming. You’ve got in there lots of tips on homesteading and that sort of thing. You also have a lot of factual information and you dug deep into the science of having a farm and everything that goes on. If there’s one way for you to describe this book, what would it be?
At the beginning of the book, I do describe it as part memoir part homesteading guide, part love letter to farming. You described it well. Part one is certainly to help that informed consumer demand and for people to really understand the big picture. The second part is to inspire people to get involved in reconnecting with their food. There’s information on raising animals, gardening preserving, and then there’s a lot of real food recipes in there as well. Everything from kombucha to the perfect roast, and canned chicken and things like that. Lots of recipes that i’ve loved so much over the years that I hope can really help people.
Advice For City Dwellers To Start Eating Real Food
Abey as we begin to wrap up, Iβd love to ask you what does a person do who maybe lives in New York City, is in an apartment, doesnβt have a farm to have their own cow on and this thing? What can that person do to you know just take a small step to eating better and eating real food?
Thereβs lots of small things for sure that ultimately are big things as well like cooking from scratch in connecting with those traditional techniques that the Wise Traditions promote so well. Seeking out what they can locally. In a city, that might mean going to a farmerβs market. With a lot of cities the farming community isnβt always so far away. If people are willing to make that trip and buy farm direct that can be great too. Most cities have really great farmers’ markets or great natural food stores or beyond that are carrying those good quality things.
I think itβs really important for people to connect as much as they can with the producers so that they really understand what theyβre getting. So many of the labels theyβre a good starting place but they can be really misleading and theyβre not always painting the full picture. I think the more people can connect with whoβs actually producing their food, the better. There is also community gardens, school gardens, patio gardens. People who live like at least have a backyard depending on their zoning, they can have chickens or rabbits or other small creatures.
For people living in the city itβs I think connecting with their producers and also just asking themselves each week what is it that could you buy more locally or buy more directly or what could you make yourself. It can be overwhelming when you first start making kombucha or sourdough or sauerkraut or all these different wonderful ferments but once you get into those rhythms, I think thatβs what it becomes. Itβs just working those things incrementally into your daily rhythms, your weekly rhythms and then you know what to do and so many of those things are so forgiving. Itβs a very rewarding thing. Itβs a really wonderful thing to include children in as well and then youβre not only helping nourish them as they grow but teaching them such an amazing life skill.
Abey, I know you just listed a bunch of things that the reader can do for better health, but if you had to pick just one thing, what would that be?
I would say eating a real food diet and focusing as much as they can on whole, real food that they can prepare for themselves in their own homes as much as possible.
I want to thank you for being with us. On behalf of the Weston A. Price Foundation, you were wonderful and it was so nice to meet you. I hope to have you back on the show again.
Absolutely. Thank you so much.
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Our guest was Abey Scaglione, author of the book Radical Farm. Animals, Food, and Our Future. To learn more about her work, her farm and the ideas we explored in this conversation, visit RadicalFarmBook.com. Now, a review from one of our listeners. This comes from LauraGreen49. βI love these podcasts. Our lives have been so commercialized and dominated by big corporate money-making schemes. This information helps break it all down. I just want to buy a farm so I can do this all myself. My son was expressing gratitude for his homegrown breakfast the other day and I realized we donβt pay that much attention to the supermarket food.β
Laura, thank you. Hearing how these conversations are making a difference in your home and family is exactly why we do this work. If youβre enjoying the show, weβd be grateful if youβd take a moment to leave a rating or review wherever you listen. Your feedback helps others to discover the show and become part of this growing community. Thank you so much for spending time with us. Be well, be nourished, and be free.
About Abey Scaglione
Abey Rae Scaglione is a former vegetarian turned rancher who farms in British Columbia, Canada. Abey studied psychology at Acadia Unversity in Nova Scotia before moving to California to become a Pilates instructor. She taught in Santa Barbara and Los Angeles, and owned a Pilates studio in Beverly Hills for three years before moving to the Bay Area. It was in Northern California that Abey fell in love with gardening and raising chickens. She now lives at Ruckle Heritage Farm on Salt Spring Island, where she milks a Jersey cow, and raises sheep, beef cattle, turkeys, and chickens, as well as grows vegetables, fruit and medicinal plants. She lives with her husband, two sons, two cats and two dogsβwhere sometimes bottle-fed lambs and poultry chicks can be found running around in the house. She is the author of Radical Farm: Animals, Food and Our Future. Part memoir, part homesteading guide, part love letter to farming, this book helps people make an informed decision on the food system they want to support and inspires readers to reconnect with their food.
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